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Historical Case for the Resurrection of Jesus

Colt

Well-Known Member
What's the difference between "atheistic science" and "theistic science"?
Atheistic science is with a materialist, atheist bias. Ken ham and his pseudo-science would be an example of theistic science.
There should just be science in its sphere and spirituality in its realm.


"A mechanistic philosophy of life and the universe cannot be scientific because science recognizes and deals only with materials and facts. Philosophy is inevitably superscientific. Man is a material fact of nature, but his life is a phenomenon which transcends the material levels of nature in that it exhibits the control attributes of mind and the creative qualities of spirit." UB
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Wishful thinking by an anti-Christ.
I suggest anti-Christs are only believers, not atheists. Anti-Christs are those believers who think Jesus as savior was real, but also don't follow what the Bible says he taught. How much more anti-Christ can you get that a true believer who ignores what Jesus taught? Not believing the myth or dogma from the many diverse Christian sects isn't being anti-anything, it is rejection of the many competing claims Christian sects make, all without adequate evidence of being true.
The simplest child like faith is all that is required.
Required by whom? When reasoning is a reliable tool why resort to the faith of a child, unless you don't want a to discern true from false?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The above post negates any previous false statements you made respecting atheists and reinforces your acrid aggressive heckling and sense of superiority against atheists.
Which is ironic and as simple minded as a child when an adult claims to follow Jesus and his teachings to not judge others, yet does anyway. Talk about being anti-Christ.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
We've been over this, Leroy. Multiple times. And you're still trying to shift your burden of proof onto me.
Nope, if you what naturalism to be the default position, you need to show beyond reasonable doubt that naturalism is true,

I still don’t understand your commitment for avoiding the burden proof at all cost.



This whole entire paragraph, , save for Paul's "experience" is total hearsay.

How do you know that? this is what is frustrating about you and other non-theists form the forum………. You make claims, and for some strange reason you think that you don’t have a burden proof and you don’t have to support your claims.

How can you tell if a text is based on hearsay , what objective method do you have to offer? And how do you conclude that Paul ´s text is based hearsay according to that objective method that you are suppose to present?

We have nothing from "the 500."
Well you have the testimony of a contemporaneous author (paul)……… I agree that we do not have strong evidence for the 500s and othe apperances, but other apperances are better evidence, for example the appearance to Paul, Peter the 12 and the women are supported by multiple independent sources.

The appearance to Peter is independently attested by Luke and Paul, the appearance to the Twelve by Paul Luke and John. to the women in Matthew and John.

So pay attention, because this is relevant, I admit that there is not enough evidence to convince someone that presupposes that naturalism is true.

My claim is that the evidence is good enough according to historical standards….. in other words if any “natural” claim is supported by this amount of evince historians would accept it as an uncontroversial historical fact.

If historians what to apply different rules for events that contradict naturalism, that is a different issue

Your burden is to refute my claim (in red)


It certainly is enough time to have risen to legend status. Look at quickly Trump's cult following started believing that he actually won the election, and not only just that, all kinds of other completely crazy things like the dead Venezuelan President somehow helping Trump to win from beyond the grave.
That is a different and disanalogous situation.

The trump issue is suppose to have happened in the “deep web” by hackes and that kind of “secret stuff”

The appearances where public events.

If I tell you that there was a UFO and an Alien in your neighborhood 2 years ago (or 20 or 40 years ago) do I have a chance to convince anyone form that neighborhood?.......... no, because people where there, people would have noticed the Alien or atleast they would have known someone that saw the alien.



I Corinthians was written down about 53-54 CE, according to historians, after many years of being passed on orally (and most likely embellished upon, like a game of Telephone). Which is plenty of time for a legend to develop and expand.
yes but the creed that I quoted dated within 2 years after the dead of jesus

you don’t seem to grasp, that it would have been impossible for the a resurrection “legend”to flourish in the place and time where the witnesses where there.

Can you imagine this conversation

Paul: hey please change your religion because Jesus rose from the dead 20 years ago in this city

Jew: ok

I mean, obviously this Jew would have known that there was no resurrection, otherwise he would have noticed that event.

Sincerely believing something is not an indication that the thing believed in is true. It just means you really believe it. Well, so what? Lots of people sincerely believe in all kinds of things that aren't true.
Sincerely beliving shows that they didn’t made it up
What witnesses? To what?
What I meant is that Paul knew the apostles, and first generation Christians, he had no need to use legends or rumors as a source, he could have asked the witnesses of the resurrection directly.

So do lots of other things. Like it becoming the official state religion of the Roman Empire. Like wars. Like missionaries. Like forcing people to convert. By preaching. And on and on.
Yes but you are 400 yeasrs our of date.

The point is that there where maaaaaaaany messianic movements during that time, and all of these movements died with the messiah,

So what is your hypothesis? What was different with Jesus, why is it that early Christianity flourished after Jesus died?


So I answered to your questions and request so now is your turn

1 can you show that naturalism is true beyond reasonable doubt? is not then why is naturalism the default position?

2 can you provide an objective method to determine if a text is legend or hearsay?

3 what is your best hypothesis to explain the 3 bed rock facts presented in the OP

4 why is that hypotheis better than the resurrection according to the criteria mentioned in the OP

Explanatory scope - does the hypothesis account for all the data
- Explanatory power - how well does the hypothesis explain the data
- Plausibility - is the hypothesis compatible with or implied by facts that are generally accepted as known
- Less ad hoc - does the hypothesis go beyond what is known and makes unevidenced assumptions
- Illumination (a bonus criteria) - does the hypothesis shed light on other areas of inquiry

if you dont answer to these 4 points, none of your posts will be adressed by me
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
We've been over this.
Why do you ignore my response?
You know it is sad to see that you are not willing to admit even a trivial but mistake

We already agreed that me buying dog food would be evidence that I have a Dog (and evidence for other hypothesis)

So your definition of evidence is wrong, predictions and observations don’t have to be exclusive for one hypothesis in order to call them “evidence”.

This is not a big of deal, this is just semantics, the problem is your unwillingness to admit a mistake,
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
These are CLAIMS



I literally gave you an example where a false story concerning a non-event arose within TWO DAYS after the supposed facts.



We have examples today where people convert to any number of religions due to "miraculous" experiences that you yourself don't even believe because you are not a hindu, a muslim, a scientologist, etc.



All followers of all religions believe honestly and sincerely. That in no way means that their reasoning is accurate or that their reasons for believing are valid or that their conclusions from experiences that made them believe are accurate.



You can go an talk to alien abductees, big foot spotters and people who claim to have seen Elvis today.
Claims remain mere claims, regardless of when they are made.



Every religion flourished at some point in time. Scientology went from 0 members to millions in a few decades.
Religions obviously don't require valid / accurate claims or reasons to flourish.


Literally NONE of your 6 points makes this story believable or even plausible. NONE.



Don't change the topic.
First of all, nobody here claimed to be a naturalist in the dogmatic sense you are trying to pin us on.
Secondly, the topic is the resurrection, so perhaps stick to trying to build a valid case for that supposed event.
This is tedious and boring

All those points have been addresses multiple times.

Lets stick to the OP

1 provide a hypothesis (explain and develope the hypothesis)

2 explain why is that hypothesis better than the resurection according to this criteria

Explanatory scope - does the hypothesis account for all the data
- Explanatory power - how well does the hypothesis explain the data
- Plausibility - is the hypothesis compatible with or implied by facts that are generally accepted as known
- Less ad hoc - does the hypothesis go beyond what is known and makes unevidenced assumptions
- Illumination (a bonus criteria) - does the hypothesis shed light on other areas of inquiry

Any comments unrelated to this will be ignored


And just to be clear, I am not blaming you for anything, I am aware of the fact that I contributed in to moving the thread to topics that have nothing to do with the OP.


and the same goes for other people form this forum
@joelr @Subduction Zone @It Aint Necessarily @shunyadragon etc.

any Post that doesn’t even attempts to address these 2 points will be ignored

I am pretty sure that the author of this thread (@Apologes ) had this intent when he wrote the OP
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Nope, if you what naturalism to be the default position, you need to show beyond reasonable doubt that naturalism is true,

It is beyond reasonable doubt that Methodological Naturalism is true
How do you know that? this is what is frustrating about you and other non-theists form the forum………. You make claims, and for some strange reason you think that you don’t have a burden proof and you don’t have to support your claims.

How can you tell if a text is based on hearsay , what objective method do you have to offer? And how do you conclude that Paul ´s text is based hearsay according to that objective method that you are suppose to present?

Paul's text only says he saw a light and a vision(?). thousands of people in the history of Christianity claim they see the light and vision of Jesus Christ and consider the vision real. None of these decisions then and now is evidence for the resurrection.

The problem remains that the claim of the resurrection is for a supernatural event as previously defined for which there is no independent records for the witness during the life of Jesus.
Well you have the testimony of a contemporaneous author (paul)……… I agree that we do not have strong evidence for the 500s and othe apperances, but other apperances are better evidence, for example the appearance to Paul, Peter the 12 and the women are supported by multiple independent sources.

The appearance to Peter is independently attested by Luke and Paul, the appearance to the Twelve by Paul Luke and John. to the women in Matthew and John.

So pay attention, because this is relevant, I admit that there is not enough evidence to convince someone that presupposes that naturalism is true.

It is only relevant to those who believe it is true. very very circular. Again similar claims throughout Christian history have been made and none represent evidence that it is true.

Yes, Methodological Naturalism can be considered true beyond a reasonable doubt There is no objectively verifiable evidence that refutes Methodological Naturalism.
My claim is that the evidence is good enough according to historical standards….. in other words if any “natural” claim is supported by this amount of evince historians would accept it as an uncontroversial historical fact.

No, standard academic standards DO NOT or cannot historically confirm supernatural events in any religion in history nor even if they occur today. They are indeed controversial and religious not historical claims.


Abstract​

A variation on the epistemological objection to special acts of God (miracles) investigated in the previous chapter is the claim that such acts cannot be recognized by anyone who is committed to critical, historical investigation. This kind of argument, which rests on the nature of historical knowledge and critical historical method, is considered in this chapter. If the incarnational narrative necessarily includes such divine actions, then the argument claims that we cannot have historical knowledge of it. The different sections of the chapter are: rationalism about religious knowledge; can the rationalist conception of religious knowledge be defended?; Hans Frei and the character of the biblical narrative; the assumptions of the ‘critical historian’; Troeltsch’s principles of correlation and analogy; and the sociology of knowledge and appeals to authority.
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
Any "hypothesis" that does not require the suspension of natural law, is more likely then ideas that do require the suspension of natural law.

Always. About anything.


If you really need to have it explained to you why that is the case, well.... what can I say.
Well not granted, and you haven’t supported that assertion
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
No. It doesn't allow you to distinguish the true hypothesis from the false ones.
So it's useless.


It's useless evidence because it doesn't allow you to distinguish true from false.
You have conflicting hypothesis and the data point supports both.
Hence: useless.

Moreover, the hypothesis "you own a dog" doesn't even predict that therefor you will buy dogfood.
Your dog could also live from leftovers from the table. Buying dogfood is not at all a requirement for owning a dog.

Remember my definition? It also included that the evidence must match the "testable and verifiable predictions that naturally flow from the hypothesis".
For "buying dogfood" to be evidence FOR the hypothesis of owning a dog, then NOT buying dogfood would have to be evidence AGAINST the hypothesis. But it is not.

So all you have here... is at best data that is consistent with it. It doesn't support it and it doesn't disprove it. It is at best "consistent with".
I'm sorry that you are having so much trouble comprehending this simple concept.

Compare this all to the nested hierarchy of life....
Very different story.

Evolution has predictions that naturally flow from it. One of which is that life MUST be organized in a nested hierarchy. And if it is NOT the case, then evolution is FALSE.
And there is no other well-defined idea that makes this prediction.

Hence, nested hierarchy of life exclusively supports evolution AND if it doesn't exist, it disproves it.

THAT is valid evidence. THAT has explanatory power. THAT is not useless. THAT is far more and stronger then merely being "consistent" with the idea.
Ok that is funny and unexpected

So your observation of me buying dog food is not evidence that I have a dog (that is your cliam),,,,,,,,,,,,, well all I can say is that your definition of evidence is different form what everybody’s definition.

Lets see if @SkepticThinker corrects your mistake


Evolution has predictions that naturally flow from it. One of which is that life MUST be organized in a nested hierarchy. And if it is NOT the case, then evolution is FALSE.
Evolution is false by that standard, microbes like bacteria are not organized in a NH, scientists believe that this is die to horizontal gene transfer and various other mechanism

You see, it is very dangerous to use the kind of strong words that you are using…….now you have to face a dilemma.

1 reject evolution

2 reject your defection/standard
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That is obviously false considering "faith" is being used to believe mutually exclusive things by a whole bunch of people.
They can't all be right. So at least some of them are wrong. Most likely, they are all wrong.
I was only speaking for myself when I said "Faith is believing something you know is true."
So I meant "Faith is believing something I know is true."

You are correct in saying that they can't all be right. So at least some of them are wrong.
Most likely, one is right and others are partly right and some are completely wrong.
There is NOTHING you can't believe on faith.
That is also true, but that does not mean that everything that is believed on faith is false.
Anything that cannot be proven must be believed on faith and God is in that category.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Nope, if you what naturalism to be the default position, you need to show beyond reasonable doubt that naturalism is true
Naturalism means we use sensory information and demonstrated facts to understand what is true about the universe. Do you seriously doubt that?
I still don’t understand your commitment for avoiding the burden proof at all cost.





How do you know that? this is what is frustrating about you and other non-theists form the forum………. You make claims, and for some strange reason you think that you don’t have a burden proof and you don’t have to support your claims.

How can you tell if a text is based on hearsay , what objective method do you have to offer? And how do you conclude that Paul ´s text is based hearsay according to that objective method that you are suppose to present?


Well you have the testimony of a contemporaneous author (paul)……… I agree that we do not have strong evidence for the 500s and othe apperances, but other apperances are better evidence, for example the appearance to Paul, Peter the 12 and the women are supported by multiple independent sources.

The appearance to Peter is independently attested by Luke and Paul, the appearance to the Twelve by Paul Luke and John. to the women in Matthew and John.

So pay attention, because this is relevant, I admit that there is not enough evidence to convince someone that presupposes that naturalism is true.

My claim is that the evidence is good enough according to historical standards….. in other words if any “natural” claim is supported by this amount of evince historians would accept it as an uncontroversial historical fact.

If historians what to apply different rules for events that contradict naturalism, that is a different issue

Your burden is to refute my claim (in red)




That is a different and disanalogous situation.

The trump issue is suppose to have happened in the “deep web” by hackes and that kind of “secret stuff”

The appearances where public events.

If I tell you that there was a UFO and an Alien in your neighborhood 2 years ago (or 20 or 40 years ago) do I have a chance to convince anyone form that neighborhood?.......... no, because people where there, people would have noticed the Alien or atleast they would have known someone that saw the alien.




yes but the creed that I quoted dated within 2 years after the dead of jesus

you don’t seem to grasp, that it would have been impossible for the a resurrection “legend”to flourish in the place and time where the witnesses where there.

Can you imagine this conversation

Paul: hey please change your religion because Jesus rose from the dead 20 years ago in this city

Jew: ok

I mean, obviously this Jew would have known that there was no resurrection, otherwise he would have noticed that event.


Sincerely beliving shows that they didn’t made it up

What I meant is that Paul knew the apostles, and first generation Christians, he had no need to use legends or rumors as a source, he could have asked the witnesses of the resurrection directly.


Yes but you are 400 yeasrs our of date.

The point is that there where maaaaaaaany messianic movements during that time, and all of these movements died with the messiah,

So what is your hypothesis? What was different with Jesus, why is it that early Christianity flourished after Jesus died?


So I answered to your questions and request so now is your turn

1 can you show that naturalism is true beyond reasonable doubt? is not then why is naturalism the default position?

2 can you provide an objective method to determine if a text is legend or hearsay?

3 what is your best hypothesis to explain the 3 bed rock facts presented in the OP

4 why is that hypotheis better than the resurrection according to the criteria mentioned in the OP

Explanatory scope - does the hypothesis account for all the data
- Explanatory power - how well does the hypothesis explain the data
- Plausibility - is the hypothesis compatible with or implied by facts that are generally accepted as known
- Less ad hoc - does the hypothesis go beyond what is known and makes unevidenced assumptions
- Illumination (a bonus criteria) - does the hypothesis shed light on other areas of inquiry

if you dont answer to these 4 points, none of your posts will be adressed by me
Lots of good questions by a curious and uneducated person, but you have answers to most of these and we know you will dismiss them for dogmatic reasons.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Nope, if you what naturalism to be the default position, you need to show beyond reasonable doubt that naturalism is true,

I still don’t understand your commitment for avoiding the burden proof at all cost.
I've never said that, ever. Nor do I have to demonstrate that the natural world exists.
How do you know that? this is what is frustrating about you and other non-theists form the forum………. You make claims, and for some strange reason you think that you don’t have a burden proof and you don’t have to support your claims.
I know that because the story isn't written by "the 500" or by the women who supposedly found the empty tomb, or by the "12" or anyone else. We don't have access to those people or their testimony. If I tell you a story I heard from someone else, that's called hearsay and that is what we are dealing with in the passage you quoted. Just read it for yourself. I’ve already pointed this out to you in regards to “the 500.”

How can you tell if a text is based on hearsay , what objective method do you have to offer? And how do you conclude that Paul ´s text is based hearsay according to that objective method that you are suppose to present?
It's written in the third person, for starters. And secondly, the passage says as much right at the beginning. My objective method is just to read the passage you provided:


For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
Well you have the testimony of a contemporaneous author (paul)………
So … one guy.

I agree that we do not have strong evidence for the 500s and othe apperances, but other apperances are better evidence, for example the appearance to Paul, Peter the 12 and the women are supported by multiple independent sources.
We have no evidence for “the 500.” Or "the women." Or "the 12." Just the claim(s).

The appearance to Peter is independently attested by Luke and Paul, the appearance to the Twelve by Paul Luke and John. to the women in Matthew and John.
Nothing from “the women” though, right? Nothing from Peter? Just people claiming somebody else saw something?


Let’s examine what Matthew and Luke had to say about it. Would you care to provide quotes for those as well, please? Let's see what claims we're talking about here.
So pay attention, because this is relevant, I admit that there is not enough evidence to convince someone that presupposes that naturalism is true.
What?
My claim is that the evidence is good enough according to historical standards….. in other words if any “natural” claim is supported by this amount of evince historians would accept it as an uncontroversial historical fact.

If historians what to apply different rules for events that contradict naturalism, that is a different issue

Historians don't apply different rules for different events. They are consistent. It is you that wants to apply different rules for different events.
Your burden is to refute my claim (in red)
You’re claiming that the evidence for the resurrection is “good enough according to historical standards?” Is that it?

I disagree and I don’t’ think you’ve made your case. Historians don’t accept it as historical fact either.
That is a different and disanalogous situation.

The trump issue is suppose to have happened in the “deep web” by hackes and that kind of “secret stuff”

It is in the sense that we can find Trump supporters that are alive today and actually interact with them and ask them questions about their beliefs. We can’t do any of that with the anonymous gospel writers that died many centuries ago. But it’s the same thing in terms of how quickly legends and myths can begin forming.

The appearances where public events.
So you claim.

Trump and his supporters have appeared publicly on many occasions, making claims about supposed election fraud. They seem to sincerely believe it as well.
If I tell you that there was a UFO and an Alien in your neighborhood 2 years ago (or 20 or 40 years ago) do I have a chance to convince anyone form that neighborhood?.......... no, because people where there, people would have noticed the Alien or atleast they would have known someone that saw the alien.
If you had evidence, perhaps you could convince people.
yes but the creed that I quoted dated within 2 years after the dead of jesus
You mean the creed that was passed on orally for a number of years before being written down? The creed that Paul added onto? (And who knows who or what else?)
you don’t seem to grasp, that it would have been impossible for the a resurrection “legend”to flourish in the place and time where the witnesses where there.
You haven’t demonstrated how or why that would have been impossible.

On the flip side, we already know that stories that are passed down orally are subject to all kinds of errors in transmission, embellishments and exaggerations, etc. You know, human nature stuff. Just play a game of telephone with your friends and you’ll see how that works pretty quickly.
Can you imagine this conversation

Paul: hey please change your religion because Jesus rose from the dead 20 years ago in this city

Jew: ok

I mean, obviously this Jew would have known that there was no resurrection, otherwise he would have noticed that event.
What?
Sincerely beliving shows that they didn’t made it up
No, it does not. Joseph Smith sincerely believed in Mormonism, which he clearly just made up, and even died for that belief. Do you believe Mormonism is true?
What I meant is that Paul knew the apostles, and first generation Christians, he had no need to use legends or rumors as a source, he could have asked the witnesses of the resurrection directly.
So you claim. Why? For the Bible tells me so.
Yes but you are 400 yeasrs our of date.
Not really.
The point is that there where maaaaaaaany messianic movements during that time, and all of these movements died with the messiah,
So?
So what is your hypothesis? What was different with Jesus, why is it that early Christianity flourished after Jesus died?
I think I already gave a number of examples and reasons.
So I answered to your questions and request so now is your turn

1 can you show that naturalism is true beyond reasonable doubt? is not then why is naturalism the default position?
We know that nature exists. We can define it. We can measure it. We can test it. Etc.

We don’t know the same for the “supernatural” so it makes no sense to appeal to it.
2 can you provide an objective method to determine if a text is legend or hearsay?
See above.
3 what is your best hypothesis to explain the 3 bed rock facts presented in the OP
I don’t think one is necessary. Lots of people have experiences that they attribute to all kinds of things. Doesn’t make them true. Perhaps all of the stories are just completely made up. Perhaps they have some kernel of truth with some massive embellishments.

Where did “his disciples” report “having experiences? What did they say? We’ve already ruled out “group” experiences, at this point, I think.
4 why is that hypotheis better than the resurrection according to the criteria mentioned in the OP

Explanatory scope - does the hypothesis account for all the data
- Explanatory power - how well does the hypothesis explain the data
- Plausibility - is the hypothesis compatible with or implied by facts that are generally accepted as known
- Less ad hoc - does the hypothesis go beyond what is known and makes unevidenced assumptions
- Illumination (a bonus criteria) - does the hypothesis shed light on other areas of inquiry

if you dont answer to these 4 points, none of your posts will be adressed by me
The best explanation isn’t going to be something that hasn’t been shown to be possible and has never occurred before, in any verifiable way.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
This is tedious and boring

All those points have been addresses multiple times.

Lets stick to the OP

1 provide a hypothesis (explain and develope the hypothesis)

The Methodological Naturalist view and academic historical view of the supernatural are the criteria that determine there is no objectively verifiable evidence for supernatural events as previously defined. Therefore there is no justification to believe that the claim of resurrection is true other than a basis of subjective religious belief.
2 explain why is that hypothesis better than the resurrection according to this criteria.

The resurrection is based on the extraordinary claim that the supernatural event of the resurrection is true. These claims have never been supported by objectively verifiable evidence by either scientific or historical standards. Standard historical standards are provided by an Oxford University source. See post #1,115.

There are no contemporary independent sources from the 500+ witnesses during the life of Jesus. Actually, no independent primary source for the life of Jesus exists during his lifetime.


Explanatory scope - does the hypothesis account for all the data?

There is no independent objectively verifiable 'data' that documents the resurrection during the life of
Jesus. Claims of visions involving Jesus are common throughout the history of Christianity.

The scientific and historical view is that the life and times of Jesus were ordinary and non-controversial based on the existing evidence during the life of Jesus.
- Plausibility - is the hypothesis compatible with or implied by facts that are generally accepted as known

All the records of independent sources of the time. The following historians living during and around the time of Jesus dd not mention Jesus nor the resurrection.

- Less ad hoc - does the hypothesis go beyond what is known and makes unevidenced assumptions

No, the Methodological Naturalist and academic historical explanations of the time only considers the objectively verifiable evidence of the time and known historical records of the life of Jesus.
- Illumination (a bonus criteria) - does the hypothesis shed light on other areas of inquiry

The questions of how supernatural events are considered when recorded in ALL ancient religions of the past and today are treated objectively, equally, and without bias. The ancient scriptures are considered historical religious narratives containing some historical facts and persons, and religious supernatural claims and events. but not considered historical factual records.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
This is tedious and boring

All those points have been addresses multiple times.

Lets stick to the OP

1 provide a hypothesis (explain and develope the hypothesis)

2 explain why is that hypothesis better than the resurection according to this criteria

Explanatory scope - does the hypothesis account for all the data
- Explanatory power - how well does the hypothesis explain the data
- Plausibility - is the hypothesis compatible with or implied by facts that are generally accepted as known
- Less ad hoc - does the hypothesis go beyond what is known and makes unevidenced assumptions
- Illumination (a bonus criteria) - does the hypothesis shed light on other areas of inquiry

Any comments unrelated to this will be ignored


And just to be clear, I am not blaming you for anything, I am aware of the fact that I contributed in to moving the thread to topics that have nothing to do with the OP.


and the same goes for other people form this forum
@joelr @Subduction Zone @It Aint Necessarily @shunyadragon etc.

any Post that doesn’t even attempts to address these 2 points will be ignored

I am pretty sure that the author of this thread (@Apologes ) had this intent when he wrote the OP
Yes, it is tedious and boring. Do you realize whose fault that is?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I've never said that, ever. Nor do I have to demonstrate that the natural world exists.

I know that because the story isn't written by "the 500" or by the women who supposedly found the empty tomb, or by the "12" or anyone else. We don't have access to those people or their testimony. If I tell you a story I heard from someone else, that's called hearsay and that is what we are dealing with in the passage you quoted. Just read it for yourself. I’ve already pointed this out to you in regards to “the 500.”


It's written in the third person, for starters. And secondly, the passage says as much right at the beginning. My objective method is just to read the passage you provided:


B}For what I received I passed on to you [\b] as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

So … one guy.


We have no evidence for “the 500.” Or "the women." Or "the 12." Just the claim(s).


Nothing from “the women” though, right? Nothing from Peter? Just people claiming somebody else saw something?


Let’s examine what Matthew and Luke had to say about it. Would you care to provide quotes for those as well, please? Let's see what claims we're talking about here.

What?


Historians don't apply different rules for different events. They are consistent. It is you that wants to apply different rules for different events.

You’re claiming that the evidence for the resurrection is “good enough according to historical standards?” Is that it?

I disagree and I don’t’ think you’ve made your case. Historians don’t accept it as historical fact either.


It is in the sense that we can find Trump supporters that are alive today and actually interact with them and ask them questions about their beliefs. We can’t do any of that with the anonymous gospel writers that died many centuries ago. But it’s the same thing in terms of how quickly legends and myths can begin forming.


So you claim.

Trump and his supporters have appeared publicly on many occasions, making claims about supposed election fraud. They seem to sincerely believe it as well.

If you had evidence, perhaps you could convince people.

You mean the creed that was passed on orally for a number of years before being written down? The creed that Paul added onto? (And who knows who or what else?)

You haven’t demonstrated how or why that would have been impossible.

On the flip side, we already know that stories that are passed down orally are subject to all kinds of errors in transmission, embellishments and exaggerations, etc. You know, human nature stuff. Just play a game of telephone with your friends and you’ll see how that works pretty quickly.

What?

No, it does not. Joseph Smith sincerely believed in Mormonism, which he clearly just made up, and even died for that belief. Do you believe Mormonism is true?

So you claim. Why? For the Bible tells me so.

Not really.

So?

I think I already gave a number of examples and reasons.

We know that nature exists. We can define it. We can measure it. We can test it. Etc.

We don’t know the same for the “supernatural” so it makes no sense to appeal to it.

See above.

I don’t think one is necessary. Lots of people have experiences that they attribute to all kinds of things. Doesn’t make them true. Perhaps all of the stories are just completely made up. Perhaps they have some kernel of truth with some massive embellishments.

Where did “his disciples” report “having experiences? What did they say? We’ve already ruled out “group” experiences, at this point, I think.

The best explanation isn’t going to be something that hasn’t been shown to be possible and has never occurred before, in any verifiable way.

Historians don't apply different rules for different events. They are consistent. It is you that wants to apply different rules for different events.

If by hearsay you mean “written by a third person” then yes, except for Paul all appearances are hearsay……….. but so what? most historical documents would be hearsay by that standard. And historians don’t reject them.

My point is that any claim that

1 was written by a contemporary author

2 that was corroborated by independent sources

3 that if true explains a series of data without adhoc fallacies

Is accepted by historians as an uncontroversial fact of history, even if it was not written by a witness, if you want to apply different rules with miraculous events, then that is an other issue. That has nothing to do with history but with philosophical and theological assumptions.

We do have 1,2 and 3 for some of the appearances. (peter, paul, the women, the 12)…….. the other appearances, like James or the 500 fail at numer “2” so by normal historical standards these would qualify as “probably true” but with room for reasonable doubt.,

The best explanation isn’t going to be something that hasn’t been shown to be possible and has never occurred before, in any verifiable way.
Ok, so what explanation do you suggest and why is it better according to the criteria from the OP?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The Methodological Naturalist view and academic historical view of the supernatural are the criteria that determine there is no objectively verifiable evidence for supernatural events as previously defined. Therefore there is no justification to believe that the claim of resurrection is true other than a basis of subjective religious belief.


The resurrection is based on the extraordinary claim that the supernatural event of the resurrection is true. These claims have never been supported by objectively verifiable evidence by either scientific or historical standards. Standard historical standards are provided by an Oxford University source. See post #1,115.

There are no contemporary independent sources from the 500+ witnesses during the life of Jesus. Actually, no independent primary source for the life of Jesus exists during his lifetime.




There is no independent objectively verifiable 'data' that documents the resurrection during the life of
Jesus. Claims of visions involving Jesus are common throughout the history of Christianity.

The scientific and historical view is that the life and times of Jesus were ordinary and non-controversial based on the existing evidence during the life of Jesus.


All the records of independent sources of the time. The following historians living during and around the time of Jesus dd not mention Jesus nor the resurrection.



No, the Methodological Naturalist and academic historical explanations of the time only considers the objectively verifiable evidence of the time and known historical records of the life of Jesus.

you fail to adrees my post

1 provide a hypothesis (explain and develope the hypothesis)}

2 expalin why is that hypothesis better according to the criteria presented in the OP
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
If by hearsay you mean “written by a third person” then yes, except for Paul all appearances are hearsay……….. but so what? most historical documents would be hearsay by that standard. And historians don’t reject them.

My point is that any claim that

1 was written by a contemporary author

Paul never meet Jesus
2 that was corroborated by independent sources

There are no independent sources at the time of the life of JEsus that corroborate the existence of Jesus or the resurrection.
3 that if true explains a series of data without adhoc fallacies

The information to claim the resurrection is the compilation of the gospels dated over 50 years after the life of Jesus, and the claims are not acceptable by the Oxford University historical standards.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
you fail to adrees my post

1 provide a hypothesis (explain and develope the hypothesis)}

2 expalin why is that hypothesis better according to the criteria presented in the OP
1 provide a hypothesis (explain and develope the hypothesis)

The Methodological Naturalist view and academic historical view of the supernatural are the criteria that determine there is no objectively verifiable evidence for supernatural events as previously defined. Therefore there is no justification to believe that the claim of resurrection is true other than a basis of subjective religious belief.
2 explain why is that hypothesis better than the resurrection according to this criteria.

The resurrection is based on the extraordinary claim that the supernatural event of the resurrection is true. These claims have never been supported by objectively verifiable evidence by either scientific or historical standards. Standard historical standards are provided by an Oxford University source. See post #1,115.

There are no contemporary independent sources from the 500+ witnesses during the life of Jesus. Actually, no independent primary source for the life of Jesus exists during his lifetime.

You have failed to respond and failed to respond to post #1,115 concerning your false claim that the claim of resurrection meets academic historical standards. You also made a false claim that most historians support that the resurrection is true, which is false.

Please respond to the fact that there are no independent witnesses outside the NT to the life of Jesus or the resurrection. Also, Paul never met Jesus.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If by hearsay you mean “written by a third person” then yes, except for Paul all appearances are hearsay……….. but so what? most historical documents would be hearsay by that standard. And historians don’t reject them.
They are? I don't think so.
My point is that any claim that

1 was written by a contemporary author
But none of the accounts of Jesus were.
2 that was corroborated by independent sources

That did not happen either. We went over that.
3 that if true explains a series of data without adhoc fallacies

No, you do not seem to realize that you are still relying on ad hoc explanations of the weakest sort.
Is accepted by historians as an uncontroversial fact of history, even if it was not written by a witness, if you want to apply different rules with miraculous events, then that is an other issue. That has nothing to do with history but with philosophical and theological assumptions.

But they are not accepted in that matter either. That was another empty claim of yours that you could never support.
We do have 1,2 and 3 for some of the appearances. (peter, paul, the women, the 12)…….. the other appearances, like James or the 500 fail at numer “2” so by normal historical standards these would qualify as “probably true” but with room for reasonable doubt.,
Those all appear to be just empty claims of Paul's or the self contradictory claims of the Bible. Worse yet you keep using the Canadian girlfriend argument .
Ok, so what explanation do you suggest and why is it better according to the criteria from the OP?
None is needed. Even if one accepted all of the nonsense that you claimed, which no one does, the claim of "mass hallucination" which no one has claimed, would still be the better explanation.

When you refuse to listen to others when they refute you you lose the right to demand that they do so again.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
If by hearsay you mean “written by a third person” then yes, except for Paul all appearances are hearsay……….. but so what? most historical documents would be hearsay by that standard. And historians don’t reject them.
"If I tell you a story I heard from someone else, that's called hearsay and that is what we are dealing with in the passage you quoted. Just read it for yourself." ...

It's written in the third person, for starters. And secondly, the passage says as much right at the beginning. My objective method is just to read the passage you provided:


For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."


My point is that any claim that

1 was written by a contemporary author
So is Harry Potter. And Spiderman. And Scientology.
2 that was corroborated by independent sources
Other sources from within the Bible?
So ... for the Bible tells me so?
3 that if true explains a series of data without adhoc fallacies
What data?
Is accepted by historians as an uncontroversial fact of history,
It isn't.
even if it was not written by a witness, if you want to apply different rules with miraculous events, then that is an other issue. That has nothing to do with history but with philosophical and theological assumptions.
Nope, not different rules. The. Same. Rules.
You're the one wanting different rules for your supernatural claims.
We do have 1,2 and 3 for some of the appearances. (peter, paul, the women, the 12)
Nope.
…….. the other appearances, like James or the 500 fail at numer “2” so by normal historical standards these would qualify as “probably true” but with room for reasonable doubt.,
Nope.
Ok, so what explanation do you suggest and why is it better according to the criteria from the OP?
It's made up.
The authors were mistaken.
The authors had an agenda.
The authors were just passing on stories they heard from other people.
There was a guy named Jesus that people admired and talked about and over time and numerous oral transmissions of stories about him became embellished, added onto, exagerrated, etc. Like Elvis. Or Trump.
 
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