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Historicity of Claimed Miracles

thau

Well-Known Member
Not every instance of the Hindu milk miracle has been scientifically explained, so your skepticism seems hasty. The Buddhist miracles definitely did have eyewitnesses. How else could we have written stories testifying to their validity?
...the tomb was originally the site of the most important miracle ever witnessed. So where is the tomb? Did his followers just forget? Did they think it unimportant to preserve the location? Surely someone must have realized that the location would be significant to future generations. :confused:

...OK, then tell us who wrote the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Peter, and the Gospel of Mary? After all, we have exactly the same evidence that they were written by the people named in their titles, yet they never made it into canon. Indeed, where did all the apocryphal gospels come from?
Couple of passing comments:

As a Catholic I have no reason to doubt the supernatural qualities of the Hindu milk miracles and others that may have equally compelling evidence. I have far more problem believing they were all tricks.

As far as the location of Jesus’ tomb is concerned, the Catholic Church position is the safest default one in almost all (not all) differences among Christian faiths. The Catholic encyclopedia, NewAdvent, makes a strong case, IMO, for the Church of the Holy Sepulchre being the actual location. It also notes it was never totally forgotten or ignored as well. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07425a.htm

With regards to so many authors, so many various writings in “competition” for divinely inspired --- I ask, if God is truly real and Jesus divine, why would any of this come as a surprise? Unless one insists that because God is all perfect and all knowing He should have made it far more clear and apparent for all interested parties? I think that works against the critical pieces of the measure of a soul, i.e. faith, sacrifice, suffering. Life is a trial and it is pleasing to Our Lord to honor those who know a little, but enough, and trust all the rest. They know that God exists based on their ability to reason and an examination of facts available – and it is enough! We go forward seeking to please God based out of gratitude alone for a promise of eternal life. We also endeavor to do as God says, to be patient, forebearing, merciful and charitable to the highest degree to our fellow man. We do not need to know all the details, we need to maintain faith on some matters. We believe that God intended to use “broken vessels” to form His Church and do his bidding here on earth. We believe that would include error (on some levels), sin and discord among the brethren, but that the Holy Spirit would ultimately prevail amongst the faithful. Consequently, the Church put faith in its many councils in determining what is inspired Scripture and what is not. Here we maintain faith in God it is as He intended. It is also as St. Augustine said in response to a number of troubling matters --- “Rome has spoken, the case is closed.” (1)

(1) Now do not someone get all dogmatic on me and attribute that quote to mean more than it was intended.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The Catholic encyclopedia, NewAdvent, makes a strong case, IMO, for the Church of the Holy Sepulchre being the actual location

A strong case for the faithful and apologetic.


Its weak as it gets when it comes to actual history though. There is nothing that ties it to the man outside wishful thinking.

We don't even know if there was a tomb. John Crossan states he was probably put in a pit fed to wild dogs or vultures.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
Further objections? Hit me up in my box and enlighten me. You set'em up, and I will knock'em down :D

I don’t recall any of my objections being met and overturned!
But anyway we’ll resume on the ‘Battle of Evolution v Creationism’ thread where we left off, if that’s okay?

Well, if God exists, why can't we expect the existence of recorded miracles throughout history?


Well if God exists then I think that’s exactly what we should expect. But I’m questioning the way the miraculous has been downgraded from biblical times. The modern healing or medical miracles held on record by the Catholic Church are hardly violations of the laws or uniformity of nature. A very typical case, for example, records a person in 1928 recovering from meningitis after praying to a saint. We’ve yet to see an amputated limb grow back overnight or dead tissue regenerate, never mind Lazarus-type examples of the dead springing to their feet.

Well, Paul said that Jesus appeared to more than 500 people (1 Corin 15:3-7)...so I don't know what you mean by "far more witnesses"....second, what do you mean by "mass" graves? The scripture says "many holy people", but how many is "many"? Third, no other Gospels records these events, and it is not found in any other literature other than Matthew, so I am led to believe that this event, as extraordinary as it was, was not that big of a deal. Hell, Matthew doesn't even elaborate on what happened, so it couldn't have been that much of a big deal if Matthew himself didn't bother to elaborate on the details. He just simply recorded what happened, nothing more, nothing less.

But he recorded it as a fact, something that actually happened. Either it is true or it is not! If it is true then it is certainly a ‘big deal’ as far as history is concerned. If it is not true then that must cast doubt upon Matthew’s testimony.

On station? Um, cot...he appeared to them purposely. It wasn't as if Jesus was just wandering around aimlessly after the Resurrection and just HAPPENED to bump in to the disciples as he wandered along.

So, he sought people out to prove to them that he was alive?

This was at a specific place at a specific time...the scripture states that they went into the holy city...it doesn't state that the holy men went directly to the emperor of Rome and appeared before all of his officials...the scripture states the men appeared to many people, not every single person in the region.

But this is highly significant. The crucial point is that although we are (very conveniently) not told of those who witnessed the graves opening and the ‘sleeping saints’ coming to life, those events must nevertheless have been witnessed in order for it to be known that they happened. Now consider that in contrast to the Resurrection. Nobody saw Jesus come to life; there were no witnesses to that event, only an empty tomb and subsequent claims to have seen the person Jesus alive. So, one set of events was actually witnessed while the other was assumed. Compared with the tomb mystery, the holy men in Jerusalem leaving their graves is by far the greater miracle, if true. Its object was to make us in awe of the epoch-making event that was Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection, but it was just an embellishment, and one that no doubt had its intended effect on the superstitious people of times past. But to a modern mind it isn’t credible. And that event being underplayed by Matthew suggests to me that no supernatural events took place at all, neither the Resurrection nor the holy men leaving their graves.

This kind of remind me of when Michael Jackson died and how his death was mourned by people all over the world...and someone asked "Why is there so much fuss about Michael Jackson's death, people die every day"...and someone said "Well, those people are not Michael Jackson". Hahaha

The same situation here. Jesus grew large crowds everywhere he went, so obviously the story of his Resurrection would garner more attention than the others, especially given the fact that the resurrections of these holy men occured AFTER Jesus' Resurrection, the buzz generated from Jesus' Resurrection would have over-shadowed these other men, especially if the holy men were giving everyone the message of "Because Jesus ressurected, so did we". It would not have been that big of a deal.

So between an itinerant preacher and the venerated saints and holy men being restored to life, which do you honestly think would have the greatest spiritual significance and effect upon the general religiously inclined population? It would be the latter.

Well, and those that don't have theological and spirtual commitments won't argue for the supernatural, right? The fact of the matter is, is the empty tomb and the disciples belief in the Resurrected appearances of Jesus an historical event? I think the answer is yes...and if the answer is yes, then how is it best explained? That is the question there....how is the empty tomb and the origins of the disciples belief best explained?

There are several possibilities. The most unlikely one would be: ‘His dead body somehow came back to life.’
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Not every instance of the Hindu milk miracle has been scientifically explained, so your skepticism seems hasty.

Not every instance? So some aspects of the statue drinking milk can be explained, but other aspects of the statue drinking milk can't be explained? Makes no sense.

The Buddhist miracles definitely did have eyewitnesses. How else could we have written stories testifying to their validity?

Siddhartha Guatama never performed any miracles, and he was the founder of the religion. He was not divine, and his existence was contingent, so where would these miracles come from? Makes no sense.

As for Mohammed, the Quran itself is considered a miracle, since it was divinely inspired.

Makes no sense.

However, Muslim tradition has it that he committed miracles, so your objection seems rather flimsy. Being an atheist, I can dismiss all of these claims out of hand, but you really need to put at least as much effort into refuting them as you have to refuting allegations of Christian miracles. ;)

It is common knowledge that Muhammad never performed miracles in the Quran, Cop.

Actually, now that you bring it up, yes. The bodies of those crucified for treason were usually not returned to the families.

And where has it ever been argued that Jesus' body was returned to his family?

Nevertheless, the tomb was originally the site of the most important miracle ever witnessed. So where is the tomb? Did they think it unimportant to preserve the location? Surely someone must have realized that the location would be significant to future generations. :confused:

Cmon now, cut the crap. Even if the bible recorded the exact location of Jesus' tomb, you would be on here saying "How do we know that this is the location of the tomb??? Just because the bible says it is doesn't make it true". The same way you are raising these objections and doubts about other things, this whole "tomb location" business would be added amongsts the other list of things you are skeptical about. So don't make it seem as if the location of the tomb is this big missing link between your belief and non-belief.

OK, then tell us who wrote the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Peter, and the Gospel of Mary? After all, we have exactly the same evidence that they were written by the people named in their titles, yet they never made it into canon.

No we don't have the same evidence that those other Gospels were written by the people named in their titles. The early Church apparently felt as if these books were uninspired and I happen to agree. Peter was one of Jesus' right hand men, and everyone knows this...so why would they purposely not include Peter's gospel in the canon when his name would certainly carry more weight than Mark or Luke...and Thomas' name would also carry more weight than Mark and Luke, so why wasn't his gospel included, because the early Church rendered it uninspired.

Indeed, where did all the apocryphal gospels come from?

From men that the church thought were uninspired by God.

As for your claim that "it was unanimous that the disciple Matthew wrote...", let's just leave aside the fact that Matthew wasn't a disciple, but an alleged apostle

Alleged? No, he was.

, and ask: Which group of people were "unanimous" in supporting that decision? It certainly isn't a unanimous opinion of Bible scholars today. You appear to be relying on tradition, not scholarly opinion, for your "unanimity".

I am relying on what the devout believers of the early church said, not people who are making educated guesses some 2,000 years later. There is no known writings of the early church bickering about who wrote the Gospels. They purposely included the book of Matthew because according to them, it was written by Matthew, tax collector, and disciple of Jesus. They said that of the 12 disciples, two of them wrote Gospels about Jesus, and of all of the 12, one had a disciple named Mark that wrote a Gospel about Jesus, and one man named Luke who was a companion of Paul (former skeptic), wrote a Gospel about Jesus. So of the four Gospels, two weren't even authored by disciples of Jesus, so obviously there is nothing to lie about....now why is that so hard to believe/accept?

Good question. Where did those names come from? Ehrman provides a detailed discussion of it in Jesus, Interrupted, but the bottom line is we don't know why they were given those names.

Correction; some people don't ACCEPT the names that were given.

He felt that using those names helped to convey an air of authenticity to the accounts, but they were basically used as stories to evangelize a specific theological school. Mark isn't so concerned with Jesus' fulfillment of biblical prophecies, but Matthew was. So Matthew took a lot of material from Mark (sometimes verbatim), but he modified it to work in stories of how Jesus was proving his bona fides by fulfilling prophecies.

Well Mark was a disiple of Peter, and last I checked, Peter would be a good source to get information from, considering he was Jesus' right hand man and all. Second, the book of Matthew has wayyy more chapters than Mark does, so there is only so much "relying on Mark" that could have been done.

Each canonical Gospel actually seems to have different theological lessons to convey. That's why there were rival gospels in the first place--to establish a specific school of thought on the significance of Christ and what his ministry was about. Different authors had different perspectives and beliefs. And they embellished the stories in different ways.

So what? If every canonical Gospel was exactly the same, word for word, we wouldn't need all four now, would we? Each wrote from a different perspective, as you said, but nevertheless all four agree that Jesus lived, was crucifed, buried, and rose from the dead 3 days later.

Well, we also have letters that most scholars believe were forgeries but nevertheless made it into canon. There are various theories as to why or how Paul's name got attached to them, but they stand as evidence of how easy it was to confuse people.

Easy to confuse people? Paul became converted after Jesus spoke to him personally. He wasn't going by what he was told from others (at first).

As for the letters that most do think were authentically written by Paul, they really contain almost nothing at all of the canonical Gospel stories. Paul was strangely silent on the life of Jesus. Or, what he did say wasn't something that Christians wanted to preserve, because it contradicted their beliefs. Who knows?

Paul may have been silent on the life of Jesus, but he wasn't silent on the Resurrection of Jesus. The point was not to talk about Jesus' life, but his Resurrection, and also how we should live our lives.

Actually, both Tacitus and Josephus were writing many decades after the death of Jesus.

Wait a minute, this is funny lol. "They had no way to know or verify what Christians were saying, because they were writing many decades after the death of Jesus"....yet, scholars of today act as authorites on matters concerning history and write books CENTURIES later after most events that they write about...and yet in a above quote you were telling me about the "scholarly" opinion of today? Taxi cab fallacy.

They had no way to know or verify what Christians were saying

Wait a minute once again, Jospheus work was called Antiquities of the Jews, and he lived during a time at which the early Christians were being persecuted and killed by the Roman emperor Nero, so Jospheus knew EXACTLY what Christians were saying, so you are just completely wrong.

, but their writings do testify to the existence of people who worshiped Christ.

Wait a minute, so their writings aren't good enough to "know or verify what Christians were saying", but their writings are good enough to "testify to the existence of people that worshipped Christ". Makes no sense. Second, you do a horrible job of trying to downplay the fact that each one mentions refers to Jesus and speak of him as a man that existed in the first century AD.

Worse yet, many scholars question the authenticity of some of the passages that reference Christ.

Yeah the famous interpolation passage regarding the reference of Jesus in Jospehus' work. If you omit the interpolation, you still have the historical Jesus. No harm done here.

That does not even begin to explain how your God is distinguished from all those gods you believe to be false.

Yes it does. If my God is the Judeo-Christian God, then how can it not?
The problem is that the false gods have worshipers that are equally convinced of the existence of their gods. They have their own scriptures and "theistic thinkers". Your God is not unique in that respect. What makes him more believable? What makes all of those other people wrong and you right? All you've said so far is "I'm convinced". So are people who disagree with you, so that doesn't sound very persuasive.

As I said, the arguments for the historicity of the Resurrection of Christ. If that is true, then I don't need to look any further than Christianity.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Cmon now, cut the crap. Even if the bible recorded the exact location of Jesus' tomb, you would be on here saying "How do we know that this is the location of the tomb??? Just because the bible says it is doesn't make it true". The same way you are raising these objections and doubts about other things, this whole "tomb location" business would be added amongsts the other list of things you are skeptical about. So don't make it seem as if the location of the tomb is this big missing link between your belief and non-belief.

I'd be curious to hear your best guess about the tomb. Why do you think its location was lost, if Jesus really arose from the dead there?

The Jerusalem Church existed by at least 35 CE. Why didn't they keep the tomb as the holiest shrine of the new religion?
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
I don’t recall any of my objections being met and overturned!

Memory lapse, perhaps?

But anyway we’ll resume on the ‘Battle of Evolution v Creationism’ thread where we left off, if that’s okay?

I said in the box.

Well if God exists then I think that’s exactly what we should expect. But I’m questioning the way the miraculous has been downgraded from biblical times. The modern healing or medical miracles held on record by the Catholic Church are hardly violations of the laws or uniformity of nature. A very typical case, for example, records a person in 1928 recovering from meningitis after praying to a saint. We’ve yet to see an amputated limb grow back overnight or dead tissue regenerate, never mind Lazarus-type examples of the dead springing to their feet.

We've also never seen life originating from non-living material (abiogenesis), and animals producing different kind of animals (macroevolution), and these are alleged NATURAL things that are supposed to happen, yet we don't see it. Does that stop you people (naturalists) from believing in those things? No.

But he recorded it as a fact, something that actually happened. Either it is true or it is not! If it is true then it is certainly a ‘big deal’ as far as history is concerned.

But the point was to focus on Jesus' Resurrection, not theirs. And look at the way it was written, almost as an afterthought, kind of like "this great thing happened, but lets get back to this Jesus business, shall we?".

Either the event itself was not that significant, or Matthew didn't think it was significant enough to elaborate on in light of the Resurrection of Jesus.

If it is not true then that must cast doubt upon Matthew’s testimony.

But why would he mention it if it wasn't true? Was he lying?

So, he sought people out to prove to them that he was alive?

No doubt. You wouldn't have the disciples preaching the Resurrection in the book of Acts if they did not see Jesus post-mortem.

But this is highly significant. The crucial point is that although we are (very conveniently) not told of those who witnessed the graves opening and the ‘sleeping saints’ coming to life, those events must nevertheless have been witnessed in order for it to be known that they happened.

I agree.

Now consider that in contrast to the Resurrection. Nobody saw Jesus come to life; there were no witnesses to that event, only an empty tomb and subsequent claims to have seen the person Jesus alive.

Well, on the same token no one saw the holy men come to life. The narrative certainly doesn't imply it. People saw the men after they had risen...so I think we can assume that these men died recently...assuming that they were recognized by those that saw them, right?

So, one set of events was actually witnessed while the other was assumed.

No, the content of the scripture doesn't seem to indicate that people actually saw the men rise from their resting place. It states that the tombs were open, the bodies raised to life, and the men went into the holy city. So this is actually a parralle to Jesus' Resurrection in that sense.

Compared with the tomb mystery, the holy men in Jerusalem leaving their graves is by far the greater miracle, if true. Its object was to make us in awe of the epoch-making event that was Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection, but it was just an embellishment, and one that no doubt had its intended effect on the superstitious people of times past. But to a modern mind it isn’t credible. And that event being underplayed by Matthew suggests to me that no supernatural events took place at all, neither the Resurrection nor the holy men leaving their graves.

Well, it seems to me that Jesus' Resurrection was greater, since he predicted his own betrayal, death, and Resurrection.

So between an itinerant preacher and the venerated saints and holy men being restored to life, which do you honestly think would have the greatest spiritual significance and effect upon the general religiously inclined population? It would be the latter.

Well, that is what you think, but what has actually occured? The Christian movement swept through the Roman empire like a wild fire and by the time the empero Nero was in office, it was out of control. Now Christianity is the worlds largest religion, and this is all based on the Resurrection of one man, Jesus Christ. So there is little doubt on which has the greatest spiritual significance and effector upon the religiously inclined.

There are several possibilities. The most unlikely one would be: ‘His dead body somehow came back to life.’

So, if that one is off the table, what is the next one?
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
I'd be curious to hear your best guess about the tomb. Why do you think its location was lost, if Jesus really arose from the dead there?

Because perhaps maybe they cared less about the tomb, and more about the Christ.

The Jerusalem Church existed by at least 35 CE.

I am glad you realize that the Church existed that early, considering Jesus is said to have died between 30-33CE. Early stuff here, no legendary gossip.

Why didn't they keep the tomb as the holiest shrine of the new religion?

Because perhaps maybe they cared less about the tomb, and more about the Christ.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Paul said that Christ appeared to him, also. Being a former skeptic and persecutor of the early Christians, there has to be a reason for his 360 degree turn, and I think it is based on his words being true. So either Paul was lying, and the disciples were lying. What do you think? Were they lying?

Well, Paul was not an electron, so he could have changed direction only with a 180 degrees turn, ;)

I think we should follow Hume here: what is more likely: that Jesus appeared to Paul or that any of the following cases happened:

1) hallucinations
2) heat stroke
3) lie
4) just stories written in a book, like Arthur and Excalibur
5) midlife crisis
Etc

First off, it doesn't say "multitude", it says "many"....and I don't know how many is "many". 5? 10? What? And to answer your question, the Resurrection of one (Jesus) is more of a big deal than the others, because with Christ' Ressurection an entire religious began, and it is now the largest religion in the world, and it is based off the Resurrection of ONE man, not many people.

The multitude could have been two, for what is relevant. It is still something I would have not forgotten to mention, especially if I put so much attention towards individual resurrections, e.g. Lazarus.

By the way, the virginity of Mary seems also to have been forgotten by half of the evangelists. Unimportant detail: virgins get children all the time ;)

It does seem a little odd, I will admit...and notice it state that these resurrections occured AFTER Jesus' Resurrection, but this is said before Jesus is even resurrected, so the placement seems odd as well. Oh well, stranger things have happened...or has it? Hahaha

Well, not really. The tombs opened up and they came back to life soon after Jesus death. They just stayed there on hold until Jesus resurrection; after that they left their tombs and they have been seen by many. But how did the so-called eye witnesses know that they came back to life at a time before they have been seen? The only explanation is that these souls told them later they stayed hidden for three days, which is odd.

Strange, isn't it? Especially the surprise of the women and the rest to find an empty tomb. i mean, if His death caused these amazing phenomena (many tombs opening up , solar eclipses, earthquakes, thunders without clouds), it is logical to expect that He would resurrect as well or provide some other amazing phenomena from the afterlife.

I wonder why the disciples were so skeptic at the beginning, if those miracles really happened around the time of His death.

Ciao

- viole
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Well, Paul was not an electron, so he could have changed direction only with a 180 degrees turn, ;)

I think we should follow Hume here: what is more likely: that Jesus appeared to Paul or that any of the following cases happened:

1) hallucinations
2) heat stroke
3) lie
4) just stories written in a book, like Arthur and Excalibur
5) midlife crisis
Etc

Your thinking might be fine if the experience of Paul stood by itself. However, the cumulative weight of all the evidence for non-normal events surrounding the life of Jesus makes Paul's case more compelling. One could make the case that one event can be explained away but a whole series of events involving multiple people is not explained away so easily.

A modern example would be the case of the recently canonized Padre Pio. The number of non-normal events documented and attested to by so many makes the likelihood of their reality much stronger. If each event is taken individually I see your argument. But when a pattern emerges it becomes reasonable to consider if something deeper is occurring.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Because perhaps maybe they cared less about the tomb, and more about the Christ.

OK. I don't find that to be in line with human behavior, but we all have our opinions. If I believed that a man had risen from a tomb, and had begun to worship that man, you can bet that I would mark the tomb as a special place, a holy place.

I am glad you realize that the Church existed that early, considering Jesus is said to have died between 30-33CE. Early stuff here, no legendary gossip.

Actually I don't believe that Jesus existed in 30 CE. I think the church was already formed, probably based on someone who may have lived a hundred years earlier.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Your thinking might be fine if the experience of Paul stood by itself. However, the cumulative weight of all the evidence for non-normal events surrounding the life of Jesus makes Paul's case more compelling. One could make the case that one event can be explained away but a whole series of events involving multiple people is not explained away so easily.

A modern example would be the case of the recently canonized Padre Pio. The number of non-normal events documented and attested to by so many makes the likelihood of their reality much stronger. If each event is taken individually I see your argument. But when a pattern emerges it becomes reasonable to consider if something deeper is occurring.

I don't think so.

I saw programs on italian TV with these so-called witnesses of Padre Pio not normal events. They were all pretty normal, or explained by a multitude of normal alternatives.

We witness very often processions of people convinced that a pipe leak in a church is in fact a statue of Maria weeping. And there is no way to convince them otherwise: if you do, you are the bad guy trying to kill hope.

People are ready to swear to have witnessed the most outlandish claims, if that confirms their faith. Always.

Hope springs eternal, and make people blind.

Ciao

- viole
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I believe that miracles only happen by the power of supernatural entities, with the only living Supreme Being being the ultimate source of all miracles.

I agree with that.

But you avoided my question:

Do you believe religious miracles only occur within the Christian tradition?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I don't think so.

I saw programs on italian TV with these so-called witnesses of Padre Pio not normal events. They were all pretty normal, or explained by a multitude of normal alternatives.

I'm sure, but I consider the bias the creators of programs before forming my personal opinion. I'm sure another viewer watching a documentary made by people sympathetic to Padre Pio would come away convinced also of their view. I try my best objectively consider everything.

We witness very often processions of people convinced that a pipe leak in a church is in fact a statue of Maria weeping. And there is no way to convince them otherwise: if you do, you are the bad guy trying to kill hope.

I do believe religious statues, etc. do give signs to their faithful and I do consider all possible natural explanations.

People are ready to swear to have witnessed the most outlandish claims, if that confirms their faith. Always.

We need to consider the possibility that they can be correct sometimes in their observations.

Hope springs eternal, and make people blind.

People attached to any worldview can become blind. It's a challenge to be truly objective.

Ciao
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I'm sure, but I consider the bias the creators of programs before forming my personal opinion. I'm sure another viewer watching a documentary made by people sympathetic to Padre Pio would come away convinced also of their view. I try my best objectively consider everything.

It was a religious program. They actually supported those miracles. But it was obvious that they weren't.

They also supported the supernatural origin of pipe leaks.

I do believe religious statues, etc. do give signs to their faithful and I do consider all possible natural explanations.

Yes, but they didn't. Only a bishop, or the catholic miracle commission, could convince them otherwise. So, here you have a multitude of people witnessing that Maria wept: would you use all these accounts of so many people as evidence that something deeper happened?

We need to consider the possibility that they can be correct sometimes in their observations.

A miracle has the benefit of the doubt only when all other explanations are more miraculous then the event they try to explain.

People attached to any worldview can become blind. It's a challenge to be truly objective.

Ciao

That is why you need objective tools like science or rational inquiry.

Ciao

- viole
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Well, Paul was not an electron, so he could have changed direction only with a 180 degrees turn, ;)

But the reason he changed directions was because of personal experience, that is the point.

I think we should follow Hume here: what is more likely: that Jesus appeared to Paul or that any of the following cases happened:

1) hallucinations

Jesus didn't just appear to Paul, but to many people. Jesus didn't appear just once, but many different times...and Jesus didn't just appear in one location, but different locations. The bible records the disciples seeing Jesus all at one time, and people don't hallucinate about the same thing, at the same time, at the same place. And even if they did hallucinate, that does not explain the empty tomb.

2) heat stroke

Doesn't explain the empty tomb.


There would be no reason for Paul to lie about seeing Jesus when he was a persecuter of the Christians anyway.

4) just stories written in a book, like Arthur and Excalibur

Jesus is a historical figure, unlike King Arthur (I used to watch the King Arthur cartoon back in the day, it was the shish).

5) midlife crisis
Etc

Doesn't explain the empty tomb.

The multitude could have been two, for what is relevant. It is still something I would have not forgotten to mention, especially if I put so much attention towards individual resurrections, e.g. Lazarus.

Apparently Matthew didn't forget to mention it, since he...MENTIONED IT.

By the way, the virginity of Mary seems also to have been forgotten by half of the evangelists. Unimportant detail: virgins get children all the time ;)

The virgin birth was a miracle, obviously.

Well, not really. The tombs opened up and they came back to life soon after Jesus death. They just stayed there on hold until Jesus resurrection; after that they left their tombs and they have been seen by many. But how did the so-called eye witnesses know that they came back to life at a time before they have been seen? The only explanation is that these souls told them later they stayed hidden for three days, which is odd.

I don't get the critique.

Strange, isn't it? Especially the surprise of the women and the rest to find an empty tomb. i mean, if His death caused these amazing phenomena (many tombs opening up , solar eclipses, earthquakes, thunders without clouds), it is logical to expect that He would resurrect as well or provide some other amazing phenomena from the afterlife.

I don't understand how it is "so logical to expect that he would Resurrect". I don't understand how that follows.

I wonder why the disciples were so skeptic at the beginning, if those miracles really happened around the time of His death.

Well, I guess you are smarter than the disciples. If you were there you would have been a regular Sherlock Holmes huh..

You: "Well, gentleman, it would appear that since we've experienced earthquakes, solar eclipses, thunder, and the resurrection of certain holy men...it seems absolutely necessary that Jesus will rise from the dead in EXACTLY three days. All of the evidence seems to be pointing that direction...after all, earthquakes absolutely implies resurrection, wouldn't you gentleman agree?"

Disciples: Yeah yeah, totally.

Gimme a break...HOWEVER....

One thing I find odd is the fact that the disciples wasn't expecting Jesus to rise from the dead...yet Matthew records the fact that the Pharisses remembered what Jesus said about rising, so they wanted to make the tomb secure and posted a guard to ensure that the disciples won't still the body before the third day (Matt 27:62-66). The Pharisses knew, but the disciples didn't...strange, but oh well.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
OK. I don't find that to be in line with human behavior, but we all have our opinions. If I believed that a man had risen from a tomb, and had begun to worship that man, you can bet that I would mark the tomb as a special place, a holy place.

I can see them making a shrine out of the grave if the body lay in the tomb...as some people do today, regarding the graves of loved ones. But if the body is no longer in the grave/tomb...what is the point? If my grandmother was raised from the dead and I go by her grave and open the casket and see that her body is no longer there (assuming that she was actually raised), I won't make a shrine out of her former burial site...no. I will make a shrine of the grave/tombstone because that is where the body lay...but I won't make a shrine out of the burial site after she is raised, because after she is raised, who gives a damn about the burial site?

Actually I don't believe that Jesus existed in 30 CE. I think the church was already formed, probably based on someone who may have lived a hundred years earlier.

Well both Jospehus and Tacitus stated that Jesus was crucified by Pilate, and Pilate served as a Roman prefect from 26AD-36AD, according to wikipedia. So Jesus had to be around the town and kicking it at least between 26AD-36AD.
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
But the reason he changed directions was because of personal experience, that is the point.

I was joking. A 360 degrees turn, is no turn at all.

Jesus didn't just appear to Paul, but to many people. Jesus didn't appear just once, but many different times...and Jesus didn't just appear in one location, but different locations. The bible records the disciples seeing Jesus all at one time, and people don't hallucinate about the same thing, at the same time, at the same place. And even if they did hallucinate, that does not explain the empty tomb.

Yes, and the Odyssey records that Odysseus soldiers were turned into pigs by a witch. Alright, if a book describes things, those things must have happened.

Do you really believe that appearances in different times and different places give veracity to a claim?

Well, then Elvis lives and alien abductions are real.

Doesn't explain the empty tomb.

I can think of hundred mundane explanations for an empty tomb, even assuming that the accounts of the Gospels are more than just nice stories.

There would be no reason for Paul to lie about seeing Jesus when he was a persecuter of the Christians anyway.

You never know. Maybe he was about to be fired as prosecutor and was looking for a new job. Midlife crisis, bad conscience, hallucination, alcohol excess, falling in love with a christian, whatever. Again, thousands of possible mundane explanations.

Jesus is a historical figure, unlike King Arthur (I used to watch the King Arthur cartoon back in the day, it was the shish).

Ok. Replace King Arthur with emperor Vespasian and Excalibur with Vespasian alleged miracles.

Apparently Matthew didn't forget to mention it, since he...MENTIONED IT.

Sure, but the others did. For some reason.

The virgin birth was a miracle, obviously.

Sure, but also forgotten by half of the evangelists. Wouldn't you have mentioned it?

I don't get the critique.

The critique is that all these stories are highly implausible, when analyzed critically.

I don't understand how it is "so logical to expect that he would Resurrect". I don't understand how that follows.

If my master dies, and when He dies I see tombs opening up, earthquakes, thunders, eclipses, etc. then I would logically conclude that He really was what He claimed. And He also claimed that He would come back after three days.

So, what is all this surprise?

Well, I guess you are smarter than the disciples. If you were there you would have been a regular Sherlock Holmes huh..

See above.

You: "Well, gentleman, it would appear that since we've experienced earthquakes, solar eclipses, thunder, and the resurrection of certain holy men...it seems absolutely necessary that Jesus will rise from the dead in EXACTLY three days. All of the evidence seems to be pointing that direction...after all, earthquakes absolutely implies resurrection, wouldn't you gentleman agree?"

Yes, of course. All these events would have made me comfortable that He was really special and He might not have lied about his claims, including His resurrection. Mark 9:31

One thing I find odd is the fact that the disciples wasn't expecting Jesus to rise from the dead...yet Matthew records the fact that the Pharisses remembered what Jesus said about rising, so they wanted to make the tomb secure and posted a guard to ensure that the disciples won't still the body before the third day (Matt 27:62-66). The Pharisses knew, but the disciples didn't...strange, but oh well.

Well, but He informed the disciples, didn't he? Again, Mark 9:31. Exactly three days if I remember sunday school correctly.

Mark also reports of a cloud (sic) confirming to the disciples that Jesus really was who He claimed.

So, why this skepticism after His death? Wouldn't you wait for something to happen on the third day?

Did the disciples suffer from amnesia?

Ciao

- viole
 
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