Historicity of Claimed Miracles

[Copernicus]

You hear it so often because it is the most powerful argument against miracles.

Can you think of a reason why healers can cast out tumors, return eyesight, abate a fever... but apparently cannot regrow a missing limb?

What is your best explanation regarding why miracle-doers cannot or will not regrow missing limbs?

I'd be curious to hear George answer this question, too, but he has sort of responded to it in his last post. He produced an anecdote of "miraculous" restoration of sight in one eye of a man that the doctor thought would regain sight in both eyes. So it looks like the doctor was wrong about the ability of the body to heal one of those eyes. Notice that the second eye, which was more severely damaged, did not regain sight. In other words, this is another example of people calling something a miracle which was thought to be impossible, but turned out just to be merely improbable.

 

[George-ananda]

Their are masters in all the enlightenment religions regardless of how they think its happening. What is happening isnt a question, how is the question. Buddhism has a naturalistic atheistic answer that collaberates with science.

The Buddhist circle on RF is atheistic but that is not Buddhism as a whole. For example many Buddhists (including the Dali Lama) believe in rebirth/reincarnation.

But what do you think are the Buddhist naturalistic atheistic answers to the untold number of claimed paranormal events. I would assume the same as the non-Buddhist atheists; confirmation bias, hoaxes, tricks, believers need to believe, etc. I have considered all this but despite my natural willingness to believe only physical natural laws effect the universe evidence has convinced me otherwise. Dramatically weird things with a human meaning do happen and I have come to believe the eastern (Indian) masters have delved deeper than any other group and has also presented us a model of the universe in which these things are not paranormal; but normal.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I'd be curious to hear George answer this question, too, but he has sort of responded to it in his last post. He produced an anecdote of "miraculous" restoration of sight in one eye of a man that the doctor thought would regain sight in both eyes.

To me, that doesn't seem the same. Maybe an optic nerve shifted. Maybe the eye produced more vitreous fluid. Whatever.

It's not something you can actually see, like a limb regrowing.

I'd be curious to hear George answer the question, too. What reason could there be for miracles to work with improving eyesight, curing cancer, etc., but for there never to have been an instance of a regrown limb?

 

[George-ananda]

Most of us would like to believe to believe that we are objective and fair-minded, but it would be foolish to rely too heavily on that opinion.

I'm glad that by the word 'us' you are at least including yourself too. I do the best I can to consider objectively.

There are people that swallow too much in their emotional need for belief. There are also people who for whatever reasons have developed such an anti-paranormal bent that their minds are closed.

A great many people who believe this would still take your anecdote with a huge grain of salt.

I'm not clear. People who believe 'what' would take my anecdote with a grain of salt?

Really? You gave no link to your source, although you mentioned "a thread a couple of weeks ago on a canonized saint". Sorry, George, but I cannot take your word on this, despite your high opinion of your objectivity and analytical skills. Do you have any personal experience relating to this particular anecdote, or are you just relying on the investigation conducted by the RCC? It strikes me that they may occasionally get things wrong in such investigations. :sarcastic

One anecdote can always be disputed forever. My opinions rest on the quantity and quality of anecdotes.

How could you possibly support this generalization? If a physical event occurs, it should be amenable to empirical investigation.

How do you empirically investigate a claim that includes beings and energies above the level of the empirical senses. All we will see are results we would not expect. We can't see the cause.

 

[George-ananda]

You hear it so often because it is the most powerful argument against miracles.

Can you think of a reason why healers can cast out tumors, return eyesight, abate a fever... but apparently cannot regrow a missing limb?

What is your best explanation regarding why miracle-doers cannot or will not regrow missing limbs?

You can create an infinite list of miracles that never occur. You can go the full distance and say why doesn't everything get cured every time?

A healing miracle occurs rarely and under certain combination of conditions, needs and histories. There are factors above our senses (like karmic factors) that we cannot see and other situations we are not aware of. To us, these rare events appear random but there are always causes that we can't see.

Now the limb thing is like asking the question why doesn't God do some grand indisputable miracle across the earth too. I once heard; miracles are intended to support belief not compel it. I believe that and I believe there is wisdom greater than ours behind that.

 

[George-ananda]

I'd be curious to hear George answer this question, too, but he has sort of responded to it in his last post. He produced an anecdote of "miraculous" restoration of sight in one eye of a man that the doctor thought would regain sight in both eyes. So it looks like the doctor was wrong about the ability of the body to heal one of those eyes. Notice that the second eye, which was more severely damaged, did not regain sight. In other words, this is another example of people calling something a miracle which was thought to be impossible, but turned out just to be merely improbable.

Please re-read the story a little more slowly. One eye was hopelessly mangled and the doctor held out hope that the other eye could be saved. It was the hopelessly mangled eye (a bloody pulp) that regained sight. The eye that had some hope never did recover.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

You can create an infinite list of miracles that never occur. You can go the full distance and say why doesn't everything get cured every time?

That wouldn't be miraculous, would it? If we could regrow our limbs, as some amphibians can do, it wouldn't be miraculous.

No, a miracle happens when some conscious being wills a supernatural event to occur.

And if such a being can really do miracles, why can't it regrow a limb?

Now the limb thing is like asking the question why doesn't God do some grand indisputable miracle across the earth too.

Yes, it's like asking why God only sends vague, easily-manipulated prophecies and never precise ones.

I'm suspicious of prophecies for that reason. I know how our minds can fool us.

I once heard; miracles are intended to support belief not compel it. I believe that and I believe there is wisdom greater than ours behind that.

How could a miracle compel our belief? Why would God send vague prophecies -- that everyone interprets differently depending upon their religion -- but never sends precise prophecies which even secular people could see as prophecies?

Why blindness but never a regrown limb?

Isn't the most likely answer that such miracles and prophecies don't really exist but that our minds can fool us when the evidence is vague? And that's why we never have some types of miracles and healings?

 

[George-ananda]

That wouldn't be miraculous, would it? If we could regrow our limbs, as some amphibians can do, it wouldn't be miraculous.

No, a miracle happens when some conscious being wills a supernatural event to occur.

And if such a being can really do miracles, why can't it regrow a limb?



Yes, it's like asking why God only sends vague, easily-manipulated prophecies and never precise ones.

I'm suspicious of prophecies for that reason. I know how our minds can fool us.



How could a miracle compel our belief? Why would God send vague prophecies -- that everyone interprets differently depending upon their religion -- but never sends precise prophecies which even secular people could see as prophecies?

Why blindness but never a regrown limb?

Isn't the most likely answer that such miracles and prophecies don't really exist but that our minds can fool us when the evidence is vague? And that's why we never have some types of miracles and healings?

To all this I can openly repeat my words:

Now the limb thing is like asking the question why doesn't God do some grand indisputable miracle across the earth too. I once heard; miracles are intended to support belief not compel it. I believe that and I believe there is wisdom greater than ours behind that.

I'll expand that explanation: By not compelling belief, I mean such grand obvious miracles that everybody would have to stop and accept. How would the world change if everyone suddenly had no choice but to accept the paranormal. How would atheists be affected? Religions with strict beliefs against this sort of intervention? Would people say alien invasion......10,000 things you have to consider about a world-shaking miracles. Higher beings have wisdom beyond ours; they guide more gently.

Occasional limited miracles to support/reinforce belief do occur as a boon. The current design of the world is not in error and doesn't need overturning.

 

[idav]

The Buddhist circle on RF is atheistic but that is not Buddhism as a whole. For example many Buddhists (including the Dali Lama) believe in rebirth/reincarnation.

But what do you think are the Buddhist naturalistic atheistic answers to the untold number of claimed paranormal events. I would assume the same as the non-Buddhist atheists; confirmation bias, hoaxes, tricks, believers need to believe, etc. I have considered all this but despite my natural willingness to believe only physical natural laws effect the universe evidence has convinced me otherwise. Dramatically weird things with a human meaning do happen and I have come to believe the eastern (Indian) masters have delved deeper than any other group and has also presented us a model of the universe in which these things are not paranormal; but normal.

See but the real head scratchers dont happen anymore. Those miracles are in the distant past. Christains answer is the apostasy and end is coming. You say its something rare but not rare enough for the information age. Heck I am starting to wonder what isnt recorded.

 

[Copernicus]

I'm glad that by the word 'us' you are at least including yourself too. I do the best I can to consider objectively.

Yes, we all do, George. And we all need to remember that we only see the world from a subjective perspective.

There are people that swallow too much in their emotional need for belief. There are also people who for whatever reasons have developed such an anti-paranormal bent that their minds are closed.

We can all accuse each other of being closed-minded, even those who too-readily accept the "paranormal bent". In the end, it matters not so much what we tell others as what we tell ourselves.

I'm not clear. People who believe 'what' would take my anecdote with a grain of salt?

"...that our 'normal' understanding of the world must be incomplete in DRAMATIC ways." Most of us understand that we have an incomplete understanding of the world in DRAMATIC ways. That does not mean that your anecdote would be so easily believed. Many of us would be more skeptical of such stories than you appear to be.

One anecdote can always be disputed forever. My opinions rest on the quantity and quality of anecdotes.

And mine on your lack of evidence for either. You have yet to display any evidence that there is any "quality" or "quantity" of any evidence. You've just given us hearsay that you personally find credible. Sorry, but you need to offer a bit more than your say-so. What "quantity" and "quality" are you talking about?

How do you empirically investigate a claim that includes beings and energies above the level of the empirical senses. All we will see are results we would not expect. We can't see the cause.

I'm only talking about evidence of results. Your anecdote is far from convincing, because it is just a story that you assure us meets your standard of credibility. I have no idea whether it meets my standard, because all I have to go on is your personal opinion. I mean no disrespect, but that is not enough for me.

Please re-read the story a little more slowly. One eye was hopelessly mangled and the doctor held out hope that the other eye could be saved. It was the hopelessly mangled eye (a bloody pulp) that regained sight. The eye that had some hope never did recover.

However slowly I read the story, it still seems to me that the doctor might have been mistaken in his judgment. That seems to me to be far more likely than a divine miracle, but I'm a hard sell on such things. I am assured by some of my Christian friends that this will lead to my eternal torment by an omnibenevolent being. I hope that I do not regret my stubborn skepticism, but I suppose that is just how the Creator made me, eh?

 

[allright]

In 1973 George Davis was instantly healed of a heart condition at a Kathryn Kuhlman Christian service.
A pacemaker was placed inside his body several months before. As well as being healed the incision scar dissappeared from his body and the pacemaker disappered fron inside him.
His surgeon was so upset by what happened he had him examined by a group of seven cardiologists one from the medical board at Harvard. They had no explanation except "its the strangest case weve ever seen"

Davis appeared on national television, was interviewed by newspapers and written about in Kuhlmans biography making it wide open for investigation and to be disproven. If anyone tried they have remained very silent about the results.

One of his doctors Dr Geoge Johnston of Philadelphis stated"I can confirm Davis had a heart attack, that a pacemaker was placed in his body and that now the pacemaker and the five-inch incision scar are gone. Its all in the record"

If you put "faith healer pacemaker miracle kuhlman" in google search the first item should be a newspaper article from September 1973 where he was interviewed by the Baltimore Afro American.

 

[George-ananda]

See but the real head scratchers dont happen anymore. Those miracles are in the distant past. Christains answer is the apostasy and end is coming. You say its something rare but not rare enough for the information age. Heck I am starting to wonder what isnt recorded.

I don't get this comment. I'm saying 'real head scratchers' do happen in modern times.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why did he get the heart condition and why did not he approach Kathryn Kuhlman Christian Service earlier? What was the need for Christian God to remove the scar and dissolve/take away (whatever) the pace-maker? There are millions of other needy people. George Davis was already doing well. Engaging in useless acts!

 

[George-ananda]

Why did he get the heart condition and why did not he approach Kathryn Kuhlman Christian Service earlier? What was the need for Christian God to remove the scar and dissolve/take away (whatever) the pace-maker? There are millions of other needy people. George Davis was already doing well. Engaging in useless acts!

You can basically say this about all healing miracles. (first I've heard of this particular story so I haven't much opinion).

The wisdom of the higher beings/gods is above our wisdom. They see and know more. Perhaps karmic influences that we can't see are involved plus the higher beings wish to give us signs that they are here.....These things might converge and a miracle occurs.

 

[idav]

I don't get this comment. I'm saying 'real head scratchers' do happen in modern times.

Science has helped with unraveling and creating marvels with greater consitency then random miracles that may or may not be authentic. We never have any issue confirming the healing science does. 1 person suddenly healing without much intervention doesnt help the thousand others needing help. Some people are simply immune and or can heal alot easier, but there would be biological reasons, we ususally can figure out a cause and not being able to doesn mean there isnt still a logical explanation. How long does science have to prove that the more we keep digging the more we keep finding logical naturalistic explanations?

Edit: I even met a person immune to HIV while the wife was battling to stay alive. This person was no saint or anything. Beating the odds isnt enough to say its a miracle.

 

[George-ananda]

Science has helped with unraveling and creating marvels with greater consitency then random miracles that may or may not be authentic. We never have any issue confirming the healing science does. 1 person suddenly healing without much intervention doesnt help the thousand others needing help. Some people are simply immune and or can heal alot easier, but there would be biological reasons, we ususally can figure out a cause and not being able to doesn mean there isnt still a logical explanation. How long does science have to prove that the more we keep digging the more we keep finding logical naturalistic explanations?

Edit: I even met a person immune to HIV while the wife was battling to stay alive. This person was no saint or anything. Beating the odds isnt enough to say its a miracle.

You are trying to make the debate Science vs. Spiritual Beliefs when I vote for both.

I think before Science can explain some of the strongest miracle claims it will need to expand to accept concepts that we now consider to be in the realm of spiritual beliefs. I think this will happen in upcoming centuries.

 

[idav]

You are trying to make the debate Science vs. Spiritual Beliefs when I vote for both.

I think before Science can explain some of the strongest miracle claims it will need to expand to accept concepts that we now consider to be in the realm of spiritual beliefs. I think this will happen in upcoming centuries.

I have spiritual beliefs, this is about nature being able to account for it.

I know the position the Dali Lama has and read a bit on his education, rather educated in qm, and his willingness to accept science alonside a spiritual path, but I also remember reading his contention on the interpretation of the double slit experiment after he saw it first hand. He wanted to believe consciousness had more of a role in the collapse, like the idea of the moon not being there when we look. The science is there, now people are trying interpret what the hecks going on and what the significance is.

 

[allright]

Why did he get the heart condition and why did not he approach Kathryn Kuhlman Christian Service earlier? What was the need for Christian God to remove the scar and dissolve/take away (whatever) the pace-maker? There are millions of other needy people. George Davis was already doing well. Engaging in useless acts!

This thread is whether miracles are real

Geoge Davis wasnt a Christian at the time God did what he did to show George Davis he is the one true God and Jesus Christ is his son and as a witness to others.

Jesus said if you dont believe my words than believe because of the miracles

 

[Ingledsva]

This thread is whether miracles are real

Geoge Davis wasnt a Christian at the time God did what he did to show George Davis he is the one true God and Jesus Christ is his son and as a witness to others.

Jesus said if you dont believe my words than believe because of the miracles

Jesus is not God.


John 14:10"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.



*

 

[allright]

Jesus is not God.


John 14:10"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.



*

Yes he is

"If you ask anything in my name I will do it"