Historicity of Claimed Miracles

[allright]

You have provided nothing, so you have proved nothing.

I said supply sources.


I have. And it shows she was a obvious fraud.

your sources are a joke - the end

 

[outhouse]

your sources are a joke - the end

Excellent debating skills :biglaugh:.

 

[roger1440]

Is it required to have faith to be cured by a faith healer? I’m not referring to having faith in the faith healers ability to heal. I’m referring to having faith in Jesus, the Easter Bunny or what ever .

 

[outhouse]

Is it required to have faith to be cured by a faith healer? I’m not referring to having faith in the faith healers ability to heal. I’m referring to having faith in Jesus, the Easter Bunny or what ever .

It is the power of a positive attitude.

If one gives up, one has already been defeated by himself.


I suppose only the faithful get taken by these fraudulent characters claiming they can distribute gods divine powers.

And the bible even warns of these types.

 

[viole]

What does it say? It say THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT HE MEANT AND WERE AFRAID TO ASK HIM ABOUT IT. If they didn't understand what he meant, why the heck would they be waiting for him to appear if they didn't understand what he meant when he said that he would? Cmon now people.

Do you find it plausible that 12 grownups did not understand something so simple? It would have been interesting to run a IQ test on each of them. I would be surprised if it reached three digits figure.

I doubt that someone with such obvious cognitive deficiencies would be accepted by a modern court of law as a reliable eye witness.

And why were they afraid to ask? A ligthning from the sky for asking a stupid question?

If I had been Jesus (God), I would have been more careful to choose disciples who actually understand what I am saying. You never know what they are going to write down for the future generations, if they are not too bright. For what we know, they might have misunderstood basically everything.

But even if they did not get it, how plausible is it they did not connect the dots when the events unfolded according to the story? Nobody recalled what He said and deduced: hey, now I understand what He said: delivered by men to be executed, all those miracles soon after Hid death, it's obvious: get ready for His return....

C'mon

Ciao

- viole

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Do you find it plausible that 12 grownups did not understand something so simple? It would have been interesting to run a IQ test on each of them. I would be surprised if it reached three digits figure.

I can say the same for individuals on here...the ones that believe that life can come from non-living material, and intelligence can come from non-intelligence. I am probably more baffled by that than the disciples were about what Jesus said.

I doubt that someone with such obvious cognitive deficiencies would be accepted by a modern court of law as a reliable eye witness.

What does the disciples not understanding what Jesus meant has to do with being an eyewitness to the Resurrected Jesus? Absolutely nothing.

And why were they afraid to ask? A ligthning from the sky for asking a stupid question?

Maybe they were afraid to ask because Jesus would have ridiculed them for asking, since they should have known.

If I had been Jesus (God), I would have been more careful to choose disciples who actually understand what I am saying. You never know what they are going to write down for the future generations, if they are not too bright. For what we know, they might have misunderstood basically everything.

If "if" was a fifth, we would all be drunk.

But even if they did not get it, how plausible is it they did not connect the dots when the events unfolded according to the story? Nobody recalled what He said and deduced: hey, now I understand what He said: delivered by men to be executed, all those miracles soon after Hid death, it's obvious: get ready for His return....

C'mon

Ciao

- viole

Actually, Peter did connect the dots in Acts 2:25-32. He compared the prophecy of Christs' Resurrection from Ps 16:8-11 at which King David said ".....because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay."

Then Peter said the propehcy was fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead, because Jesus' body obviously did not see decay.

So the dots were connected. So you are wrong, yet again.

 

[idav]

You would doubt the credibility only if you presupposed the non-occurence of miracles. You start with a presupposition, but the truth value of that presupposition COULD be false.

Your the one presupposing miracles, I simply argue for alternatives. There are always tons of alternatives most of which are natural explanations.

idav,
I don't know about you, but to me it seems a little crazy for a man, who lacks knowledge of anything to question miracles. If you stop to think about it everything we see in nature is a miracle to us.

I don't really disagree here but then it makes the word 'miracle' rather worthless.

Does it seem hard to you that the Almighty God who created Heaven and Earth and everything in them could do an act that would be a miracle to us?

I don't have to believe in a God to think miracles happen.

There is a dictionary term, ANOMY, that means: something that happens that there is no KNOWN law to explain.

That is probably what a miracle really is.

Nothing is a miracle to The Almighty God, everything is simple to Him. Stop questioning everything we do not understand, which is most things.

Yup nothing is a miracle with enough knowledge. I believe it.

Another term; Egocentric Predicament, means that we are so limited in knowledge, how can we even reason on things that are so above us??

Well we do are best don't we.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Your the one presupposing miracles, I simply argue for alternatives. There are always tons of alternatives most of which are natural explanations.

I believe in miracles based on the good evidence I have to believe in God.

 

[roger1440]

It is the power of a positive attitude.

If one gives up, one has already been defeated by himself.


I suppose only the faithful get taken by these fraudulent characters claiming they can distribute gods divine powers.

And the bible even warns of these types.

From what little I know about these faith healers, most seem to come from a Christian camp. Could these faith healers cure a Jew, Muslim or Hindu?

 

[viole]

I can say the same for individuals on here...the ones that believe that life can come from non-living material, and intelligence can come from non-intelligence. I am probably more baffled by that than the disciples were about what Jesus said.

Well, if the disciples had intelligent kids, then you should not be baffled by intelligence coming from non-intelligence

What does the disciples not understanding what Jesus meant has to do with being an eyewitness to the Resurrected Jesus? Absolutely nothing.

I don't know. I would not trust the witnessing of people with very low mental capacity, unless they told me that it is raining in Seattle.

That does not mean that they should be despised. I would simply not trust what they say, especially if it contains supersticious or extraordinary material.

Would you?

Maybe they were afraid to ask because Jesus would have ridiculed them for asking, since they should have known.

And He would have been right. Even a child would understand that. Maybe she would not believe it, but i am confident she would understanding it.

Incidentally, Jesus had so many amazing powers, but we can be sure telepathy does not belong to them. I think He should have noticed that He was talking to the wind. Being God, you know,

If "if" was a fifth, we would all be drunk.

Not necessarily. This sentence is recursive and a bit self defeating.

Actually, Peter did connect the dots in Acts 2:25-32. He compared the prophecy of Christs' Resurrection from Ps 16:8-11 at which King David said ".....because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay."

Then Peter said the propehcy was fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead, because Jesus' body obviously did not see decay.

So the dots were connected. So you are wrong, yet again.

Well, that does not address their initial skepticism, does it?

I don't know you, but if a cloud speaks to me and tells me that this man (Jesus, apparently) is really what He claims to be, then I would either think that I am hallucinating or I would take Jesus words at face value.

After all, it is amazing that they undesrtand clouds but not humans. Or were they afraid to ask the cloud for clarification, as well?

Ciao

- viole

 

[idav]

I believe in miracles based on the good evidence I have to believe in God.

What we have good evidence for is things happening that have no immediate explanation but do have natural explanations once it is thoroughly investigated especially with more modern knowledge and technologies. Ancients would think we are all sorcerers these days. If the magic type miracles were really happening day to day it would be all over the news, the government would not be able to cover it all up.

Of course the ancients thought it was something more, I wouldn't expect any less from them, but I expect more with modern thinkers. Modern day miracles being highly debatable or non-existent like some Christian sects say does not bode well for the historicity of miracles in general, it appears as if they never were miracles to begin with or were just works of fiction.

 

[Hawkins]

What we have good evidence for is things happening that have no immediate explanation but do have natural explanations once it is thoroughly investigated especially with more modern knowledge and technologies. Ancients would think we are all sorcerers these days.

That's a good point. Alternatively, the OP question may be rather if a miracle mentioned in the Bible is true, then how can this truth be passed to today's humans?

There's always a kind of truth which is incapable of discovered by humans, it's the kind of truth unreachable by humans in a specific time frame. For an example, the existence of black holes is completely out of the reach of stone age men. Similarly, other truth may fall into this "unreachable" category for today's humans.

There is one way (possibly the only way) for such a kind of truth to be reach the "not supposed to know" humans. Say, when you are sent back to stone age by a time machine (but without any modern resources), the only way for the stone age men to reach the truth that black holes exist is through you, that is, your witnessing. There's no other way round. And under that situation, all you can say to the stone age men could be that "I am the truth, I am the only way to the truth." (sound familiar?)

Even when God is true, the miracles are true, plus that God has a good reason not to cast some of the miracles today, the only way for humans to reach the historical truth that miracle did occur is through human witnessing. If the cases are well witnessed and written down, that's already the best can be done. That's already the best can be done whether you choose to believe or not.

Matthew 13
11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

To me, this is a way to skip your intelligence while to test your faith. That is, the one with faith will stand out while intelligence is irrelevant. That's seems to be the effect what God wants - a fair test of your faith by making your intelligence irrelevant.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Well, if the disciples had intelligent kids, then you should not be baffled by intelligence coming from non-intelligence

And if some posters on here have children that didn't believe that life can come from non-life, I may not be as baffled.

I don't know. I would not trust the witnessing of people with very low mental capacity, unless they told me that it is raining in Seattle.

You trust people that tell you that life can come from nonlife, and consciousness can come from unconsciousness, right? Well then.

That does not mean that they should be despised. I would simply not trust what they say, especially if it contains supersticious or extraordinary material.

It is supersitcious based on what?

And He would have been right. Even a child would understand that. Maybe she would not believe it, but i am confident she would understanding it.

Then maybe Jesus should of chose her or you to be one of his disciples, since you to are so much smarter than everyone else.

Incidentally, Jesus had so many amazing powers, but we can be sure telepathy does not belong to them. I think He should have noticed that He was talking to the wind. Being God, you know

He would of been talking to the wind had the disciples still not understood even after his Resurrection, which is clearly not what happened.

Not necessarily. This sentence is recursive and a bit self defeating.

No it isn't, you are telling me what you would have done if you were God, well guess what, you aren't God.

Well, that does not address their initial skepticism, does it?

What skepticism?

I don't know you, but if a cloud speaks to me and tells me that this man (Jesus, apparently) is really what He claims to be, then I would either think that I am hallucinating or I would take Jesus words at face value.

Um, what does this have to do with account of Acts that I quoted (Peter)?

After all, it is amazing that they undesrtand clouds but not humans. Or were they afraid to ask the cloud for clarification, as well?

If they were as slow in their learning as you claimed they were, then how would they even understand the cloud? Makes no sense. Second, what are you talking about anyway? Nothing you said makes sense in light of the Acts 2 scripture that I quoted...so it makes me wonder as to whether you lack reading comprehension skills.

 

[outhouse]

All of this, and not one ounce of evidence towards any sort of perceived miracles of any kind.

 

[outhouse]

To me, this is a way to skip your intelligence while to test your faith. That is, the one with faith will stand out while intelligence is irrelevant. That's seems to be the effect what God wants - a fair test of your faith by making your intelligence irrelevant.

And with thinking like that

We would all be riding horses and medical technology would be in the sewer.


And who are you to state what any god wants or does not want?

 

[BigRed]

When Jesus was with his Apostles in the garden of Gethsemane, [Mark 14:32-50] when Judas and the men came for Jesus with swords and clubs, the Apostles feared for their lives and they ran away. ""And they all left Him and fled."" [Mark 14:50] Had the Apostles actually witnessed Jesus healing the sick and injured, walking on water, and raising the dead, they would have had nothing to fear. The safest place to be would be with a man who could perform these fabulous miracles. But the Apostles ran for their lives because the miracles in the gospels never happened.

BigRed

 

[allright]

When Jesus was with his Apostles in the garden of Gethsemane, [Mark 14:32-50] when Judas and the men came for Jesus with swords and clubs, the Apostles feared for their lives and they ran away. ""And they all left Him and fled."" [Mark 14:50] Had the Apostles actually witnessed Jesus healing the sick and injured, walking on water, and raising the dead, they would have had nothing to fear. The safest place to be would be with a man who could perform these fabulous miracles. But the Apostles ran for their lives because the miracles in the gospels never happened.

BigRed

Based on your reasoning than Jesus had to rise from the dead because they suddenly became fearless in preaching the gospel not fearing mockery shame torture and death, all of them eventually being martyred

 

[allright]

In the Babylonian Talmud The Tractate Sanhedrin (43A) states

Jesus was hanged on Passover Eve. Forty days previously the herald had cried
"he is being led out for stoning, because he has practiced sorcery and led Israel astray and enticed then into apostasy". As nothing was brought forth in his defense he was hanged on Passover Eve

Just as in the Gospels he is charged by the Jewish leaders with performing miracles by the power of Satan.

The Talmud and the Gospels agree on one thing. The miracles were real

 

[idav]

Based on your reasoning than Jesus had to rise from the dead because they suddenly became fearless in preaching the gospel not fearing mockery shame torture and death, all of them eventually being martyred

This reasoning really makes me wonder why there is so much talk and need for faith even from Jesus himself. Even people who have seen still require much faith, I wonder why that is. Just like the doubting Thomas saw with his own eyes and still needed solid verifiable proof and I see no reason it should be any different for regular folks when an one of the apostles had the same issue. Also seems rather odd to me Thomas would need the solid verification having seen so many miracles already. He had to literally touch the wounds of jesus to believe it because there is no evidence this stuff happens and he should have been aware of such a huge event of the other saints being resurrected as mentioned in some of the accounts.

 

[viole]

And if some posters on here have children that didn't believe that life can come from non-life, I may not be as baffled.

Is dust alive?

You trust people that tell you that life can come from nonlife, and consciousness can come from unconsciousness, right? Well then.

Yes. I also trust people who don't believe it. I find strange those who do not understand what it means.

It is supersitcious based on what?

Ok. Replace superstition with credulity.

Then maybe Jesus should of chose her or you to be one of his disciples, since you to are so much smarter than everyone else.

Not necessarily, He could have settled for someone with average intelligence.

He would of been talking to the wind had the disciples still not understood even after his Resurrection, which is clearly not what happened.

He would of been talking? I am not sure it is my reading skill that needs work, .

No it isn't, you are telling me what you would have done if you were God, well guess what, you aren't God.

Well, when you say "Jesus would have ridiculed them" you also conditionally assume something about God. How do you know that He would have ridiculed them since you are not, I assume, God either?

What skepticism?

Luke 21
11 But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense.

Have you actually read the Bible, or are your reading skills not OK, either?

Um, what does this have to do with account of Acts that I quoted (Peter)?

Because it does not address their initial skepticism. They looked surprised, didn't they? Nobody said: hey, that is what Jesus said a few days ago and we did not understand (for some reason); maybe it is not nonsense after all...halleluiah. They actually believed when they saw, which made all previous announcements useless, basically.

They called "nonsense" what the women said. Which is odd, considering that Jesus communicated his return in several occasions

Matthew 20:18
Matthew 26:1
Matthew 26:31
Mark 8:31
Etc.

Don't you find it strange considering that He showed His credentials with all the miracles He performed in life and soon after death, talking clouds, etc.?

If they were as slow in their learning as you claimed they were, then how would they even understand the cloud? Makes no sense. Second, what are you talking about anyway? Nothing you said makes sense in light of the Acts 2 scripture that I quoted...so it makes me wonder as to whether you lack reading comprehension skills.

Maybe they were afraid to ask the cloud, too, who knows? Probably I would have been scared as well. You never know how clouds react when you ask them things, lol.

Ciao

- viole