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Hitchen's Challange

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
But, what truly distinguishes a righteous person from a wretched one, are the smaller less obvious acts, the ones the man cannot feign for the sake of pretense. Like, turning the other cheek or refraining from retaliation. Like patience and compassion on an everyday level, in regard to the less conspicuous issues i.e a slow talker, a simple minded person, refusing to take more than one deserves or anything at all for a service rendered, not offending another by one's vernacular speech or attire, doing a kind act anonymously, etc...

Nail: meet hammer. That's the way I see how love acts.

It starts with reckless sex. So... I ask again....
Is having reckless sex for fun and then killing the unborn civilized?

Rape is "reckless" by your definition as is failure of birth control.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
What rituals that not part of Buddhism or Shinto? Seriously, let's have a list of the "lots".
Start with Hong Kong. Everyone like Christmas
but there are not many Christians.

Who has to be religious to do ceremonies?

 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Begging the question fallacy, what creation?

An atheist challenges a theist and will, of course, reject anything the theist writes. Yawn.

That is not a religious value, it is a descriptor we assign a range of complex human emotions. More pointedly beyond loving an imaginary deity, there is no love a theist is capable of that an atheist is not.

Of all the forces that can best overcome all difficulties, the greatest is the force of love, because the greatest Law of God is Love, which holds the key to all problems. This mighty force not only enables one to put the ideal of selfless service into practice, but also transforms one into God. It has been possible through love for man to become God; and when God becomes man, it is also due to His Love for His beings.

Love is dynamic in action and contagious in effect. Pure love is matchless in majesty; it has no parallel in power and there is no darkness it cannot dispel. It is the undying flame that has set life aglow. The lasting emancipation of man depends upon his love for God and upon God's love for one and all.

Where there is love, there is Oneness and, in complete Oneness, the Infinite is realized completely at all times and in every sphere of life, be it science, art, religion, or beauty.
...
Divine Love is qualitatively different from human love. Human love is for the many in the one and Divine Love is for the One in the many. Human love leads to innumerable complications and tangles; but Divine Love leads to integration and freedom. Human love in its personal and impersonal aspects is limited; but Divine Love, with its fusion of the personal and the impersonal aspects, is Infinite in being and expression. Divine Love makes us be true to ourselves and to others and makes us live truly and honestly. Thus, it is the solution to all our difficulties and problems; it frees us from every kind of binding; purifies our hearts and glorifies our being.


Meher Baba: Love And God-Love
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
FYI, my secular morality can't conceive of any circumstances where torturing babies is moral, no matter what the motivation. It is a barbarically cruel act, but luckily there is no objective evidence for the biblical deity.
How about a doctor that is performing a hard and painful (but necesary )medical procedure?

This would be an example of a torture with moral justification, agree?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
That would depend on your ethics, and the deity, I would never consider it ethical to worship a deity that committed and endorsed relentless and indiscriminate acts of murder, including infanticide, and mass murder including ethnic cleansing and global genocide. Or a deity the encouraged humans to sex traffic virginal female prisoners, or that endorsed slavery in any way. Luckily there is no objective evidence that such a cruel and sadistic deity exists.
GOD by definition is good and worthy of worship. (Otherwise he wouldn't be God)
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I don't think you have any real idea what religion is or how people use it. I think that to you, religion is all and only the demon that your imagination has conjured up for you hate on, and you aren't the least bit interested in learning anything different.
With all due respect, it is you who doesn't seem to understand the concept of religious doctrine.
All the things I mentioned are enshrined in holy texts, revered as infallible by believers.
But you won't address that problem.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Just to be clear:
1 crushing the head of a baby that was born premature at 7 months is killing and therefore moraly wrong .

2 crushing the head of a 7months old fetus is not killing and therefore morally ok


Is this your view ? Honestly cant you notice the absurdity of that view ?
You might wanna calm down, no one said anything about 7 months.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
There is no such thing as atheist ideology. Though there are ideologies that are atheistic, atheism itself has no dogma or doctrine. Since atheism is just the lack or absence of one single belief, it cannot be an ideology, as each atheist is free to believe whatever they want or not, apart from holding any belief a deity exists.

You are fooling yourself if you think that you aren't ideological about your unbelief. The not sure, I don't care, just stay off my lawn-atheists aren't here on religious forums promoting belief in a godless universe.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Ok so at what point does it become "killing" month 6 mont 5 month 4 ?

And why did you pick that point?

Most abortions take place under 20 weeks.


Why Late Term Abortions Are Necessary A small number of abortions occur after 20 weeks of gestation primarily because the fetus is gravely or fatally impaired, or the woman's life or physical health is at risk, or both4 . Many impairments or health risks are not detectable until after the 24th week of gestation. For example, in a 2016 case, a fetus showed no abnormalities at a 20-week scan for a Montreal woman. Yet, at seven months “a new ultrasound showed the fetus was abnormally small and had skeletal malformations, likely caused by a genetic mutation.” The couple sought an abortion, rather than given birth to a child who would likely suffer greatly5 . Those opposed to abortion rights have portrayed women as having late-term abortions out of "selfish convenience" or because they "suddenly can't get into a bathing suit." This misrepresentation of women’s decision-making with regard to abortion is always inaccurate, but especially so in cases of later abortion. Most people who terminate their pregnancies after 20 weeks wanted to have a child, and were forced to consider abortion for medical reasons. Others may be in desperate social circumstances, such as an abusive relationship, or they may be children or young teens who have delayed abortion care because they were unaware of the pregnancy or in denial. https://www.arcc-cdac.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/22-Late-term-Abortions.pdf
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why is torturing babies for fun morally wrong in a subjective moral framework?
The sense in which it's wrong arises from our evolved moral framework and our acquired / learnt moral behavior.

We've evolved to have these moral tendencies, appropriate for us as gregarious primates: infant nurture and protection, dislike of the one who harms, like of fairness and reciprocity, respect for authority, loyalty to the group, and a sense of self-worth through self-denial. To our evolved kit we can add our conscience and our capacity for empathy.

So we can compare 'torturing babies for fun' to those moral tendencies, and judge the practice to be contrary to the first and second in the list above. It would also offend empathy for most people. The objective statement is then that those who torture babies for fun should expect the disapproval of most of their fellows ─ a consideration that frequently leads perps to try to conceal their actions from others.

Our acquired / learnt morals may be less relevant in these situations.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why no clause; Name a wicked statement made or action performed precisely because of atheism? i.e. no repercussion if not caught by man. Like Audie said, the question is not about the capability or potential, but the desire and fortitude to do so unconditionally, even at the cost of sacrifice. What would compel an atheist to do the same, ...life is much too short for that.

It seems from this that you don't know what a conscience is or how in acts in those that do. Conscience compels those who cultivate one to do right as they understand it. Those with a mature, well-developed conscience desire to do good and feel good when they do. If they do harm, even inadvertently, they suffer remorse and shame.

You may be intending to demean atheists, but I don't think that's what you actually accomplished. Have you seen this? :

"Atheist are routinely asked how people will know not to rape and murder without religion telling them not to do it, especially a religion that backs up the orders with threats of hell. Believers, listen to me carefully when I say this: When you use this argument, you terrify atheists. We hear you saying that the only thing standing between you and Ted Bundy is a flimsy belief in a supernatural being made up by pre-literate people trying to figure out where the rain came from. This is not very reassuring if you're trying to argue from a position of moral superiority." - Amanda Marcotte

So claiming that morality happens apart from religion is false. It might, but we'll never know because religions have been a significant part of every society that has ever existed.

You may never know, but others do. I do. I know where my morals come from - me, by the application of reason to compassion. There are some overlaps with probably every other moral code, but that's either because the people who wrote those used the same method long ago and writing down as a commandment from a deity, or coincidence. Religions have no good ideas not generated by this method, and fall short of what rational ethics generates, which is why secular humanists have been able to improve on biblical ethics, for example, which advocates for the divine right of kings and lays out the rules for slavery.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It seems from this that you don't know what a conscience is or how in acts in those that do. Conscience compels those who cultivate one to do right as they understand it. Those with a mature, well-developed conscience desire to do good and feel good when they do. If they do harm, even inadvertently, they suffer remorse and shame.

You may be intending to demean atheists, but I don't think that's what you actually accomplished. Have you seen this? :

"Atheist are routinely asked how people will know not to rape and murder without religion telling them not to do it, especially a religion that backs up the orders with threats of hell. Believers, listen to me carefully when I say this: When you use this argument, you terrify atheists. We hear you saying that the only thing standing between you and Ted Bundy is a flimsy belief in a supernatural being made up by pre-literate people trying to figure out where the rain came from. This is not very reassuring if you're trying to argue from a position of moral superiority." - Amanda Marcotte



You may never know, but others do. I do. I know where my morals come from - me, by the application of reason to compassion. There are some overlaps with probably every other moral code, but that's either because the people who wrote those used the same method long ago and writing down as a commandment from a deity, or coincidence. Religions have no good ideas not generated by this method, and fall short of what rational ethics generates, which is why secular humanists have been able to improve on biblical ethics, for example, which advocates for the divine right of kings and lays out the rules for slavery.

Flimsy belief holding back...i suppose for a few it does. I think of the guy who told me he awaits Gods word so he can kill atheists.

As for religion giving us morality.
Im told it gave us science, too.
Just want credit for everything
except inquisition.
 
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