Hitchen's Challange

[leroy]

It's not killing if it is unborn, but to answer your question I would say using birth control is more civil than not, if that is what you mean by reckless sex. Having sex on or near the edge of a cliff might be considered reckless whether using birth control or not.

Just to be clear:
1 crushing the head of a baby that was born premature at 7 months is killing and therefore moraly wrong .

2 crushing the head of a 7months old fetus is not killing and therefore morally ok


Is this your view ? Honestly cant you notice the absurdity of that view ?

 

[KWED]

Name an ethical statement made or action performed by a person of faith that could not have been made or performed by a nonbeliever.

There are none.

Name a wicked statement made or action performed precisely because of religious faith?

Genital mutilation of children.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

There are none.

Genital mutilation of children.

No, that has happened for secular good reasons in the name of objective science.

 

[KWED]

The problem is this: https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

Are you still posting that meaningless link?
I have some more for you...
Restaurants do not repair cars.
Music does not cure cancer.
The colour of my socks does not determine the time of sunrise or sunset.
You're welcome.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Are you still posting that meaningless link?
I have some more for you...
Restaurants do not repair cars.
Music does not cure cancer.
The colour of my socks does not determine the time of sunrise or sunset.
You're welcome.

And science can't do morality. And you have no objective evidence for the fact that other humans are wrong.

 

[KWED]

It's important to understand that he was being paid by the word.

Not most of the time.

 

[KWED]

Are these the ones?

1. I honor virtue
2. I benefit with gratitude
3. I am peaceful
4. I respect the property of others
5. I affirm that all life is sacred
6. I give offerings that are genuine
7. I live in truth
8. I regard all altars with respect
9. I speak with sincerity
10. I consume only my fair share
11. I offer words of good intent
12. I relate in peace
13. I honor animals with reverence
14. I can be trusted
15. I care for the earth
16. I keep my own council
17. I speak positively of others
18. I remain in balance with my emotions
19. I am trustful in my relationships
20. I hold purity in high esteem
21. I spread joy
22. I do the best I can
23. I communicate with compassion
24. I listen to opposing opinions
25. I create harmony
26. I invoke laughter
27. I am open to love in various forms
28. I am forgiving
29. I am kind
30. I act respectfully
31. I am accepting
32. I follow my inner guidance
33. I converse with awareness
34. I do good
35. I give blessings
36. I keep the waters pure
37. I speak with good intent
38. I praise the Goddess and the God
39. I am humble
40. I achieve with integrity
41. I advance through my own abilities
42. I embrace the All

Many of these could be affirmed as virtues or performed as actions by a nonbeliever.

Beat me to it!
In fact, all of them could apart from the specific references to religious belief.

 

[KWED]

And science can't do morality.

And poetry can't fix my washing machine.
Did you have a point?

 

[KWED]

It's not reasonable to think no religion was involved in developing and promoting those values in or society. Or that religions are not now involved in doing so.

Ah yes, the "Everyone just murdered, raped and stole the whole time until religion came along" argument.

 

[KWED]

What was the purpose of his challenge? What was he seeking to show by this?

To show that claims that a "moral society" is not possible without religion are nonsense, I would guess.

 

[KWED]

WORSHIP God

That is not an "ethical action", especially if you are worshiping the wrong god, or the god you worship is a monster, like the Abrahamic god.

And if you reject libertarian free will (like most atheist do) I would include things like

- Lying / being honest

- Decide to do something good rather than something bad

- Comitte suicide

- Murder

- Etc.

All these actions imply a libertarian choice. For example a lie implies that you had the option/ability to tell the truth but decided to lie instead.

No idea what you are on about here. And I suspect, neither do you.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

And poetry can't fix my washing machine.
Did you have a point?

That any point, you accept, is in your brain and that all of the everyday world is not objective.
So stop doing subjective evaluations of what matters to you and find a matter-meter and use science to measure what matters according to an international scientific measurement standard for what matters.
If you can do that, I will listen to you, for all your subjective evaluations of what matters, because then they are objective.

 

[KWED]

Is that all you think religion has ever had to say about social values? Or is that just the easiest thing you can think of to promote your bias?

No. Religion also tells us to kill witches, people who work on certain days, rebellious children, people having affairs. To mutilate the genitals of children. That people with different ideas are inferior. That women don't deserve the same rights as men, etc.etc...

 

[KWED]

That any point, you accept, is in your brain and that all of the everyday world is not objective.
So stop doing subjective evaluations of what matters to you and find a matter-meter and use science to measure what matters according to an international scientific measurement standard for what matters.
If you can do that, I will listen to you, for all your subjective evaluations of what matters, because then they are objective.

Well, I reject your argument because you have no means by which to demonstrate it. In fact, one has to wonder why you even made it in the first place, believing what you believe. Hard to think of a more utterly pointless action, tbh.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Well, I reject your argument because you have no means by which to demonstrate it. In fact, one has to wonder why you even made it in the first place, believing what you believe. Hard to think of a more utterly pointless action, tbh.

And that is objective as independent of your actual individual thinking,

 

[KWED]

Yes from the point of a theist it is an ethical acction.

Worshiping Odin is not an ethical action to a Christian.

Not if you are a determinist (like most atheists)

Nonsense. That's the trouble with religionists, they always generalise.

But anyway what is the point of the challenge? What if i agree that there is not an ethical action that atheists cant do (and theist can?)...what would that prove?

It debunks the claim that a moral society requires religion.

 

[KWED]

Might want to fact check that one

"suicide bombings since 2003 have been mounted almost exclusively by groups espousing religious causes" (Encyclopedia Britannica)

When we include other ideologies that are similar in nature to religion, it has always accounted for the vast majority of such attacks.

 

[KWED]

1. Why doesnt Hitchens ask the same question from himself? Does he fear he would fail or/and he will lose his audience?

That doesn't make sense.

2. The question is worded in order to not get responses.

More nonsense. The whole point is to elicit responses and thus demonstrate a point.

Its a Strawman.

No it isn't, because it is not an argument.

I dont know which religion teaches that there are ethics only proposed by religious books we can read today and only religious people state them.

Not sure if you are being dim or dishonest here. Are you really claiming that the Quran does not prescribe strict moral values that must be adhered to, and that rejecting them is inherently immoral?

3. 7% of wars in history are aligned with religious motivations, but even then questions remain. Hitchens is either absolutely ignorant in history and theology or he is intentionally ignoring what he knows.

Now, there's a straw man.
I was hoping that Santa was going to bring you "Informal Fallacies for Dummies". Oh well.
When's your birthday?

 

[Daniel Nicholson]

And you don’t find anything wrong with that view?

The claim is that torturing a baby for fun is wrong regardless of anyone’s opinion (in the same way 2+2 = 4 it true and will still be true even if some people disagree.

At least intuitively it seems that some things are objectively wrong

I think it's subjective. For instance, I would consider cutting off the foreskin of baby boys to be torture and morally wrong, but others do not.

 

[Augustus]

"suicide bombings since 2003 have been mounted almost exclusively by groups espousing religious causes" (Encyclopedia Britannica)

When we include other ideologies that are similar in nature to religion, it has always accounted for the vast majority of such attacks.

Better to look at the whole history:

Suicide attack - Wikipedia