Hitchen's Challange

[joe1776]

Don't have to. Already done so. I am a pyrrhonian skeptic.

Are you taking anything for that?

 

[blü 2]

Yes, Yahweh was one of thousands of nature Gods among the nomadic groups. Yahweh was associated with the Sini volcano. Hense Moses's group adopted that name for their deity. Throughout the evolution of Judaism there were 7 names for deity. At the times of Abraham El Elyon was prevalent.

Makes me wonder how long ago our ancestors articulated the idea of gods. Clearly the builders of Gobekli Tepe and of Çatalhüyük aren't the first.

 

[Sheldon]

Audie said: ↑
Those are the values we are raised with.
No religion involved.

It's not reasonable to think no religion was involved in developing and promoting those values in or society. Or that religions are not now involved in doing so.

Anymore than it is reasonable to imagine those religious "morals" were not derived from the cultures, societies and epochs in which they emerged, and of course the many varying cultures and epochs in which they evolved.

 

[Sheldon]

Again, I don't see why you think this relates. If someone says, "Bob may be a thief", and you respond "I think Steve stole my neighbor's wallet", what am I supposed to make of this?

It's obvious they're drawing an inference from your unevidenced claim that prominent atheist authors are motivated by avarice, and even were this unevidenced assertion true, it is demonstrably more often true of those promoting religion. They offered some examples, and for good measure I will add that whilst Christianity does make some proclamations decrying greed, money, and even according to Jesus, making any (financial) plans for the future, atheism has no such dogma or doctrine, indeed it has no dogma or doctrine at all, beyond what an individual atheist chooses.

So the Hitch made some money from his diatribes decrying the worst of religion, good for him, so what?

 

[Sheldon]

WORSHIP God


And if you reject libertarian free will (like most atheist do)

Ah the results of another of these unevidenced and impromptu atheist polls I have missed. So the best answer to what ethical or moral choice or act a theist can make that an atheist can't, it the arbitrary "WORSHIP god". Genius...

I would include things like

- Lying / being honest

- Decide to do something good rather than something bad

- Comitte suicide

- Murder

There is nothing there an atheists cannot choose to do.

All these actions imply a libertarian choice.

No they don't, they just imply human consciousness allows a certain amount of autonomy, governed by circumstance.

For example a lie implies that you had the option/ability to tell the truth but decided to lie instead.

In other news oranges tend to be orange.

An atheist is free to tell the the truth or not, given they possess the knowledge to make such a choice.

 

[Sheldon]

Is that all you think religion has ever had to say about social values? Or is that just the easiest thing you can think of to promote your bias?

IS that all you have to say about religion's promotion of biblical homophobic bigotry? Or is this hand waving just the easiest way to promote your bias?

Other theists have been far more vocal, we notice you didn't find a voice to denounce their bigotry on here?

 

[Sheldon]

In the present-day US, secular humanism is not "protected" by religion, religion sees it as the enemy.

I'd agree, in fact I'd say (in the US) it was religious freedoms that were protected, under the rights of a secular constitution.

 

[Sheldon]

I don't agree. Science is the method to understand and appreciate the wonder and beauty of creation.

Begging the question fallacy, what creation?

 

[Sheldon]

Love

That is not a religious value, it is a descriptor we assign a range of complex human emotions. More pointedly beyond loving an imaginary deity, there is no love a theist is capable of that an atheist is not.

 

[Sheldon]

Stoics such as Seneca?

"We put down mad dogs; we kill the wild, untamed ox; we use the knife on sick sheep to stop their infecting the flock; we destroy abnormal offspring at birth; children, too, if they are born weak or deformed, we drown. Yet this is not the work of anger, but of reason - to separate the sound from the worthless"

They were neither secular nor humanists and believed in the fundamental inequality of humans and Roman supremacy.

If they were around today they'd be called fascists.

They may have been more ethical than many of their contemporaries, and I don't think we should judge them with contemporary moral standards, but it's hard to see them as proto-humanists.

Almost as if humans are anachronistic.

He did say origins of humanism, or was I mistaken perhaps. I can see, simpleton and ignoramus that I am, that the morality and reasoning of evolved mammals would change and possibly improve over time. I can't see how the morality of a perfect deity can alter though, or be anachronistic, so either misogynistic murderous, slave owning patriarchal societies are the pinnacle of morality, or we're being sold a pup.

 

[lukethethird]

Are you taking anything for that?

Hopefully a grain of salt.

 

[Sheldon]

Why no clause;
Name a wicked statement made or action performed precisely because of atheism? i.e. no repercussion if not caught by man.

Yet there is no evidence that atheists are any less moral than theists. In fact there are longstanding bodies of research that suggest atheists are at least as moral as theists in comprable situations.

Like @Audie said, the question is not about the capability or potential, but the desire and fortitude to do so unconditionally, even at the cost of sacrifice. What would compel an atheist to do the same, ...life is much too short for that.

Again the evidence of longstanding bodies of research shows that atheists are at least as moral as theists. Also if all that's stopping someone from committing egregious acts like murder and rape, is the threat of Hell, or the saccharine promise of heaven, then that person is a pretty ****** human being.

On what grounds would an atheist love his neighbour exactly as himself?

Insanity? It is a preposterous idea, and I'd love to see you evidence the idea theists in general comply to this most asinine theistic idea. Empathy for others is an evolved trait, and is not dependant on religion, but rather precedes it.

Theists know that God created all things and has a purpose for all, for better or for worse.

Does this include all the murderers and rapists who are theists, all the dictators who torture rape and murder indiscriminately throughout human history, most pointedly in the bible of and koran of course.

But, an atheist would justify his contempt or disdain for his neighbour based on his own narrow and selfish assessment.

Another sweeping piece of unevidenced bigotry.

Both are capable of doing good and evil, but theists have stronger and more fundamental convictions to endeavour to act righteously to their best ability.

Blind adherence to archaic religious texts that among other things endorse slavery, murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, infanticide, sex trafficking female prisoners, blind homophobic bigotry, (see your own many examples on that score). Though again if one need the reason, as you so bluntly put it, to refrain from egregious acts like murder and rape for example, that rather says it all.

 

[Sheldon]

Audie said: ↑
Which so totally explains why atheists are so underrepresented in US prisons.

lol, well said!

You may want to look up underrepresented, as I think you have misunderstood what Audie's saying there, or at least what it implies.

Longstanding research has shown that in the US prison system, the percentage of atheists is lower than in the general populace. Now whilst there may be many factors to consider, that hardly lends any credence to the bigoted notions many are espousing about the rectitude of atheists.

 

[Colt]

Makes me wonder how long ago our ancestors articulated the idea of gods. Clearly the builders of Gobekli Tepe and of Çatalhüyük aren't the first.

Primitive religious concepts began hundreds of thousands of years ago. The Neanderthals had ideas of an afterlife.

 

[stevecanuck]

Name an ethical statement made or action performed by a person of faith that could not have been made or performed by a nonbeliever.

Name a wicked statement made or action performed precisely because of religious faith?

Wicked statement: Qur'an 8:55 - "Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are those who have disbelieved, and they will not [ever] believe".

 

[Sheldon]

None. That was never really why we slaughtered each other. And it still isn't.

Yes I'm sure the Inquisition had nothing to do with believing in the wrong deity or wrong version, or the crusades, I bet the Holocaust had nothing to do with actually being Jewish either, or centuries of European Christian antisemitism. All just an unfortunate coincidence.

 

[Sheldon]

Primitive religious concepts began hundreds of thousands of years ago. The Neanderthals had ideas of an afterlife.

I think I know the answer, but I'm guessing you and I infer different things from that.

 

[Sheldon]

Wrong, the leader and his son are whorshiped as Gods in North Korea. Not the least bit athiest. And since we are here, neither was Hitler's Germany. I know theists love to incorrectly say Nazis were athiest

This is a very tired old canard, ask them which prominent Nazis were atheists and they usually become pretty reticent. Or point out the fact that you had to be a Christian to join the German SS divisions, and swear your oath to Hitler "before god". An odd thing for an atheist to do. Himmler was a pagan if that helps assuage their angst, though of course he was not an atheist. Hitler certainly was not.

I agree about North Korea, it's a quasi religious totalitarian state, but even were it not, it tells us less about atheism, than it does about the nature of totalitarianism.

 

[Sheldon]

The claim is that torturing a baby for fun is wrong regardless of anyone’s opinion

So your god torturing King David's newborn baby in the bible for 7 days, until it died was immoral then?

So the biblical deity is immoral then? This is news...

 

[leroy]

Ah the results of another of these unevidenced and impromptu atheist polls I have missed. So the best answer to what ethical or moral choice or act a theist can make that an atheist can't, it the arbitrary "WORSHIP god". Genius...

Why that sarcasm? The challenge was fulfilled.

In other news oranges tend to be orange.

An atheist is free to tell the the truth or not, given they possess the knowledge to make such a choice.

The problem is that you don’t reed posts. I said that if you are a determinist you cant lie. Because “lying” implies a conscious choice.