hitler was a genious

[Sunstone]

That's it?

Yeah, that's it. He was probably about average in intelligence.

So, he wasn't able to convince an entire country to fight the rest of the world and to kill millions of members of an ethnic group just because he didn't like them?

Both fighting the rest of the world and killing millions of members of an ethnic group were stupid blunders that led to his defeat. How much clearer do you need things to be?

Yes, he was a horrible man, but that shouldn't cloud the thinking about him...

It's certainly not clouding my thinking about him, but you are coming across as someone who thinks it's an act of genius to gas someone to death.

As for "failure", he succeeded in killing 6 million Jews.

That's "success" now? Turning a country against its traditional scapegoats? It's not an act of genius to stir up thousand year old prejudices and then allow your henchmen to figure out how to follow through on those prejudices.

I'm not saying he was perfect, which is apparently what you're using as your definition for "genius".

Show me where I've said genius is perfect, Mball. You won't be able to do it because I haven't said it. Instead, you are putting words in my mouth.

I have read from several sources that the British Secret Service decided not to attempt to assassinate Hitler because they judged that Hitler was winning the war for the allies via his stupid decisions and that assassinating him would only prolong the war. It's pathetic when you're so dysfunctional your enemies prefer to fight you rather than someone more capable.

 

[Mathematician]

I don't know what to think of Hitler in regards to his intellect. I suppose we're all somewhat blind about the extent of his "genius" (or lack thereof) by the fact the cards didn't fold as he expected. Hitler was certainly a great orator; I've never heard a German disagree with that point, but he didn't have the foresight to plan out a long-term strategy for how to deal with the UK and USSR. I'm not even talking about the first excursions into West Russia. Even by 1940 he fell into the same hole as the Kaiser. As soon as he was proved wrong about thinking that France and England wouldn't move to do anything if Poland was partitioned, Nazi Germany was basically stuck between a stone and a hard place. Anyone in that position would have to play olympics.

Think about it: he had to contend with England and France. Even if he did defeat both (which may have very well been possible with Operation Sea Lion at great costs), it would have left Germany vulnerable to the USSR, and Stalin had been trying to sign a pact with Europe to dispose of Hitler for years. The Red Army would have fell unto their backs. Keep in mind the only reason the Nazis defeated France so easily was because the government was in disarray. France had some of the finest tanks in the early part of the war, but the military was neglected until it was too late.

 

[Magic Man]

you can be an idiot and do the same.

No. No, you can't.

what he did was lunacy, stupidity of the highest order its a wonder Germany ever survived such brutish mismanagement.

Oh, it was lunacy, sure, but it was the opposite of stupidity. It takes great intelligence to do what he did.

how is it genius to practice industrial genocide on innocents or gamble on his infallibility with out the stake money, and making foreign policy on the basis of a erroneous world view.

no genius but an opportunist , the wrong man at the right time. how different it could have been had a real political genius took the stage.

Yes, we all agree that what he did was morally wrong. That doesn't take away from the intelligence needed to carry it out, though. Just because an action is bad or wrong doesn't mean it's automatically stupid. It's genius to do what he did because it's a ridiculously hard thing to do, and it takes a lot of intelligence and charisma.

 

[Magic Man]

Yeah, that's it. He was probably about average in intelligence.

Denying it isn't going to make it not have happened. And I'm sure it makes you feel better to deny his intellect because it makes it easier to just dismiss him and degrade him, but it's dishonest.

Both fighting the rest of the world and killing millions of members of an ethnic group were stupid blunders that led to his defeat. How much clearer do you need things to be?

Huh? They were his goals, and he achieved them. He set out to get an entire country behind him in an effort to kill an entire ethnic group and fight the rest of the world. He was successful in killing 6 million members of that group, and got pretty far in his fight against the world. That takes a lot. How much clearer do you need that to be?

It's certainly not clouding my thinking about him, but you are coming across as someone who thinks it's an act of genius to gas someone to death.

Comments like this only make it clearer that you're letting your distaste for him cloud your thinking on this. That's a gross mischaracterization of my opinion here.

That's "success" now? Turning a country against its traditional scapegoats? It's not an act of genius to stir up thousand year old prejudices and then allow your henchmen to figure out how to follow through on those prejudices.

It's an act of genius to get an entire country to help you kill millions of innocent people.

Show me where I've said genius is perfect, Mball. You won't be able to do it because I haven't said it. Instead, you are putting words in my mouth.

No, I'm not. Obviously you haven't said that exact sentence, but that's what your comments imply. You're basically saying "Hitler did not succeed in taking over the world and killing all non-aryans, therefore he was not a genius".

I have read from several sources that the British Secret Service decided not to attempt to assassinate Hitler because they judged that Hitler was winning the war for the allies via his stupid decisions and that assassinating him would only prolong the war. It's pathetic when you're so dysfunctional your enemies prefer to fight you rather than someone more capable.

Interesting. I'd love to read those sources. Can you point me to them?

Now, obviously the man went crazy. He got a little too high on himself and let things go to crap. There's no doubt that he did some stupid things towards the end. That still doesn't take away from the intelligence it would take to accomplish the things he did.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

I have read from several sources that the British Secret Service decided not to attempt to assassinate Hitler because they judged that Hitler was winning the war for the allies via his stupid decisions and that assassinating him would only prolong the war.

I'm calling shenanigans on this claim. Source please.

 

[kai]

No. No, you can't.



Oh, it was lunacy, sure, but it was the opposite of stupidity. It takes great intelligence to do what he did.



Yes, we all agree that what he did was morally wrong. That doesn't take away from the intelligence needed to carry it out, though. Just because an action is bad or wrong doesn't mean it's automatically stupid. It's genius to do what he did because it's a ridiculously hard thing to do, and it takes a lot of intelligence and charisma.

i am having trouble understanding just where the "great intelligence "thing comes from ? he was a failure , he ultimately failed in all his objectives,i am not talking about it being "bad" or "wrong" i am talking about about monumental Blunders that very nearly destroyed a nation. and what's "ridiculously hard" about any of the monumental blunders he is responsible for?


you seem to think it took "great intelligence" to kill 6 million jews? how so ? it was a totalitarian regime built on violence and intimidation they do as they wish until the stuff hits the fan ,then the house of cards come tumbling down. It was a regime built on lies supported by violence and intimidation there was no genius there! its a catalogue of mistakes.Hitler was an incompetent that only managed to operate when overwhelming force or luck was on his side.

It's an act of genius to get an entire country to help you kill millions of innocent people

No it isn't its called a totalitarian regime! is Pol Pot also gifted with "great intelligence" then? is mass murder your yardstick?

Now, obviously the man went crazy. He got a little too high on himself and let things go to crap. There's no doubt that he did some stupid things towards the end. That still doesn't take away from the intelligence it would take to accomplish the things he did.

like what?

 

[Magic Man]

i am having trouble understanding just where the "great intelligence "thing comes from ?

Did you happen to notice what he accomplished?

he was a failure , he ultimately failed in all his objectives,i am not talking about it being "bad" or "wrong" i am talking about about monumental Blunders that very nearly destroyed a nation. and what's "ridiculously hard" about any of the monumental blunders he is responsible for?

I thought I already went over the problem with thinking that anything less than perfection is not genius. Roger Federer is a tennis genius, even though he hits some bad shots, and loses some matches. What you need to see as ridiculously hard is getting an entire country to follow you on a quest to kill 6 million Jews, and taking on the rest of the world.

you seem to think it took "great intelligence" to kill 6 million jews? how so ? it was a totalitarian regime built on violence and intimidation they do as they wish until the stuff hits the fan ,then the house of cards come tumbling down. It was a regime built on lies supported by violence and intimidation there was no genius there! its a catalogue of mistakes.Hitler was an incompetent that only managed to operate when overwhelming force or luck was on his side.

Ah, you should do a bit of reading.

No it isn't its called a totalitarian regime! is Pol Pot also gifted with "great intelligence" then? is mass murder your yardstick?

Again, you should do some reading. If you're comparing Pol Pot to Hitler, you don't understand what Hitler did.

like what?

What do you mean?

 

[kai]

Did you happen to notice what he accomplished? what?



I thought I already went over the problem with thinking that anything less than perfection is not genius. Roger Federer is a tennis genius, even though he hits some bad shots, and loses some matches. What you need to see as ridiculously hard is getting an entire country to follow you on a quest to kill 6 million Jews, and taking on the rest of the world.

I dont see it as being that hard otherwise he couldnt have done it ,and he didnt do it all of his own back now did he . are you attributing everything that happened in the Third Reich to one flawed individual? He and his gang of thuggs just got away with it for a while thats all .
Ah, you should do a bit of reading.
Why



Again, you should do some reading. If you're comparing Pol Pot to Hitler, you don't understand what Hitler did.

I understand what he did and i think if Pol pot had the industrial capability that Hitler had at his disposal he would have used it.



What do you mean?

what i mean is what were his successes? i mean if your using " the final solution" as an example that was a failure too wasnt it?

 

[Magic Man]

what i mean is what were his successes? i mean if your using " the final solution" as an example that was a failure too wasnt it?

If you compare it to the ultimate goal, sure. Again, it's like Roger Federer. For instance, 2 years ago, his ultimate goal was to win Wimbledon and beat Nadal in the final. He didn't do that, but it was still a great match, and he's still a tennis genius. Hitler accomplished a lot. He may not have achieved the ultimate goal of the "final solution", but he got far enough that no regular person could get.

As for the comparison to Pol Pot, the point is that Hitler got the whole country behind him. As far as I know, Pot hasn't done that.

 

[kai]

If you compare it to the ultimate goal, sure. Again, it's like Roger Federer. For instance, 2 years ago, his ultimate goal was to win Wimbledon and beat Nadal in the final. He didn't do that, but it was still a great match, and he's still a tennis genius. Hitler accomplished a lot. He may not have achieved the ultimate goal of the "final solution", but he got far enough that no regular person could get.

As for the comparison to Pol Pot,

the point is that Hitler got the whole country behind him.

As far as I know, Pot hasn't done that.

isnt that the subject of much debate?


What did people in Germany know about the persecution of Jews and other enemies of Nazism?


Answer: Certain initial aspects of Nazi persecution of Jews and other opponents were common knowledge in Germany. Thus, for example, everyone knew about the Boycott of April 1, 1933, the Laws of April, and the Nuremberg Laws, because they were fully publicized. Moreover, offenders were often publicly punished and shamed. The same holds true for subsequent anti-Jewish measures. Kristallnacht (The Night of the Broken Glass) was a public pogrom, carried out in full view of the entire population. While information on the concentration camps was not publicized, a great deal of information was available to the German public, and the treatment of the inmates was generally known, although exact details were not easily obtained.
As for the implementation of the "Final Solution" and the murder of other undesirable elements, the situation was different. The Nazis attempted to keep the murders a secret and, therefore, took precautionary measures to ensure that they would not be publicized. Their efforts, however, were only partially successful. Thus, for example, public protests by various clergymen led to the halt of their euthanasia program in August of 1941. These protests were obviously the result of the fact that many persons were aware that the Nazis were killing the mentally ill in special institutions.

As far as the Jews were concerned, it was common knowledge in Germany that they had disappeared after having been sent to the East. It was not exactly clear to large segments of the German population what had happened to them. On the other hand, there were thousands upon thousands of Germans who participated in and/or witnessed the implementation of the "Final Solution" either as members of the SS, the Einsatzgruppen, death camp or concentration camp guards, police in occupied Europe, or with the Wehrmacht.
36 Questions About the Holocaust (1-18)

 

[ATAT]

From Wikipedia:
cut and paste:
A genius (plural genii or geniuses,[1] adjective ingenious) is an excellent intellect, excellent work or an excellent achievement. More than just originality, creativity, or intelligence, the adjective "genius" is associated with the achieving of unprecedented insight. This is called the spark of genius. The genius (the excellence, a noun) of a piece of work raises a perceiver's expectation. The use of the adjective "genius" is generalized in some instances. It is particular in other instances. It might be particular to such a discrete field as philosophy, sports, statesmanship, science or the arts.

The noun "genius" is a level of aptitude, capability, or achievement that exceeds the accomplishment of any other person in the same field. We have deduced from the normal distribution of intelligence that the concept is applicable to excellence at the of top 1‰, i.e. three standard deviations or greater, in any peer group. In psychology, the inventor of the first IQ tests, Alfred Binet, described persons in the top 1‰ of those tested as genii (a noun).[2][3] This usage of the noun "genius" is closely related to the general concept of intelligence.

The noun "genius" is applicable to a scholar in many subjects[4][Need quotation to verify] or a scholar in a single subject.
...

end cut and paste.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Thanks.

None of us could look up something on wiki.

Congrats.

 

[Sunstone]

Denying it isn't going to make it not have happened. And I'm sure it makes you feel better to deny his intellect because it makes it easier to just dismiss him and degrade him, but it's dishonest.

What happened? Did you run out of legitimate objections? Is that why you are now spouting this unsubstantiated BS?

You've lost any substance you once had and are only BSing at this point. I'm disappointed and surprised. I had thought you better than a creationist, MBall.

 

[Magic Man]

What happened? Did you run out of legitimate objections? Is that why you are now spouting this unsubstantiated BS?

You've lost any substance you once had and are only BSing at this point. I'm disappointed and surprised. I had thought you better than a creationist, MBall.

I'll be around, if you feel like getting back to a real dialogue.

 

[Peacewise]

Hitler didn't have all of Germany behind him, he killed those that opposed him, or even just plain disagreed with him.

 

[jml03]

Hitler didn't just rise to power thru his own actions. There was already this horrible economic crisis in Germany from all the debt they had incurred from WWI. They were forced to pay so much for the war that there were alot of seriously poor folks there looking for an answer, or better yet, someone to Blame.

When something goes wrong with us today - sickness, poverty, death - we want to blame someone.

The German people, and I'm not talking about the Jews, were looking for a scapegoat. They found it through Goebbles. He could flat out manipulate some advertising. Picture the cowboy for Marlboro, the beautiful flapper girl for those skinny menthol smokes- you name it. Anything we've ever bought into as a society - they bought into him, tenfold.

Once they started, they got worse with it. Painting these horrid looking Jewish men, veering at the young pretty blond girl. It got so much worse, and by this time, the poor Jewish people were already wearing stars and getting vouchers for food. I believe the German people probably were upset by seeing such things, as we know from history and all the uprisings opposing Hitler - but those that were uneducated or uncaring just wanted them to go away.

Next we have the boxcars with no windows, off to someplace far far out of sight from the public.

The thing that disgusts me so much about WWII, is the fact that the US knew what was going on, but chose no action until Pearl Harbor.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

To me, Goebbels was an evil version of Rove. When it comes to political manipulation, Karl Rove was every bit the equal of Goebbels.

 

[ATAT]

How can we compare political manipulation as practiced in 1930's Germany with recent US political manipulation? I don't see much in common.

It's like saying that warm tropical trees are just a plant version of fire because they are warm from the sun...

In the US, we have freedom of the press, I've never heard of roaming thugs arresting political opponants and I don't think modern politicians call minorities racially inferior parasites, etc.

Kind of hard to refute because the comparison is so abstract.

I'm game, what are some of the tactics used by both Rove and Goebbels which were / are not used by their contemporary opponants?

The truth is I'm ignorant of the manipulation of both, I thought Goebbels appealed to racial hatred, did Rove do this? Can you bring some parallel quotes from both?

If you do that, I would love to read it and I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[ATAT]

As for the German people looking for a scape goat, I think there was significant anti-Jewish feeling throughout Europe long before WW1.

Also, if just looking for a 'scape goat', that wouldn't explain the persistance of biological persecution when the war was going well for the Germans.

A 'scape goat' could have been found in the limitted group of Communists or WW1 political leaders who agreed to the Treaty.

That they were willing to accept a racial scape goat of an entire people means there was much more brewing from before.

Normally, when a problem motivates looking for a scape goat, the drive is to look for the individuals and their associates responsible.

Notice that when Rommel fell from grace, they didn't blame his family.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

I'm not saying that either one of them invented any new tactics. I am saying that both were absolute masters at implementing their craft.

I don't see how anyone could deny the mastery of either man.

Goebells was able to convince enough Germans that Hitler and the Nazi party was their best way going forward (though certainly not every German citizen fell for it), while Rove was able to convince enough Americans that Bush and the neocons were our best option. In Rove's case, he actually accomplished the feat not once - but twice. And the second time, the populace had seen Bush and company in action for four years.

That is no small feat - for either man.