HIV Drug Violates "Religious Freedom"

[The Hammer]

I'd say that this is reasonable accommodation of a doctor's beliefs, but denying any care to the patient is unreasonable, IMO.

Unreasonable, and against the oath all doctors take. The Hippocratic Oath.


"I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help."
NOVA | Doctors' Diaries | The Hippocratic Oath: Modern Version | PBS

I find the bolded part (my doing) to be especially important in this case.

 

[Kenny]

No, we are talking about risk to the pregnant person.

In the case we're talking about, the choice is between that one doctor doing it and the abortion not happening at all.

If the patient's needs can be accommodated by just waiting a couple hours until a responsible doctor comes on shift, then that's the alternative to allow accommodation of the irresponsible doctor.

If the abortion can't wait a few hours - or can't wait for the patient to be transported to some other facility - then we're generally talking about a case where the patient is at risk of death without an abortion.

I don't know of any doctor who wouldn't jump in and try to save both and if not, one (or a case of such).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know of any doctor who wouldn't jump in and try to save both and if not, one (or a case of such).

Then why are you telling us we need to carve out a special exception to let them do just that?

 

[Kenny]

Then why are you telling us we need to carve out a special exception to let them do just that?

You lost me. I am speaking in reference to your statement about Canada for which I responded that this exemption would be necessary because if not, then they would have to do abortions on demand.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You lost me. I am speaking in reference to your statement about Canada for which I responded that this exemption would be necessary because if not, then they would have to do abortions on demand.

They would only have to do abortions on demand if:

1) they freely chose to enter a discipline whose scope includes abortion,
2) they freely chose to get a job at a hospital or clinic that offers abortion services,
3) they freely chose to take a specific job that sometimes involves providing abortions, AND
4) no other doctor is reasonably available to perform the abortion.

... so a doctor who denies an abortion to someone has had plenty of opportunity to accommodate their conscience. In particular, any doctor who would refuse to provide an abortion at step 4 acted dishonestly and unethically when they accepted the job in step 3.

 

[Kenny]

They would only have to do abortions on demand if:

1) they freely chose to enter a discipline whose scope includes abortion,
2) they freely chose to get a job at a hospital or clinic that offers abortion services,
3) they freely chose to take a specific job that sometimes involves providing abortions, AND
4) no other doctor is reasonably available to perform the abortion.

... so a doctor who denies an abortion to someone has had plenty of opportunity to accommodate their conscience. In particular, any doctor who would refuse to provide an abortion at step 4 acted dishonestly and unethically when they accepted the job in step 3.

that would be called a religious exemption.

and the #4 can be dicey.

remember, if it is not in writing, it is subject to change.

 

[SkepticThinker]

that would be called a religious exemption.

and the #4 can be dicey.

remember, if it is not in writing, it is subject to change.

If you need a religious exemption to not do parts of your job, then you probably should get into a different field of work.
You don't have a right to push your religious views onto other people, which is what a doctor would be doing in denying someone else an abortion.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Texas. Can we just let them secede?

Or maybe drop a huge electroshock net across the entire state. Just leave it on till the survivors see reason?



Please?

 

[Kenny]

You don't have a right to push your religious views onto other people,

EXACTLY! You shouldn't do that

 

[SkepticThinker]

EXACTLY! You shouldn't do that

which is what a doctor would be doing in denying someone else an abortion.

Nor the rest of what I said.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Unreasonable, and against the oath all doctors take. The Hippocratic Oath.


"I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help."
NOVA | Doctors' Diaries | The Hippocratic Oath: Modern Version | PBS

I find the bolded part (my doing) to be especially important in this case.

Also the oath to never cut into healthy living tissue without good reason, which I noticed is notably lacking and likely forgotten these days.

 

[The Hammer]

Also the oath to never cut into healthy living tissue without good reason, which I noticed is notably lacking and likely forgotten these days.

Well sure, some things are certainly modernized, around the core set of ethical ideals.

 

[Kenny]

which is what a doctor would be doing in denying someone else an abortion.

Nor the rest of what I said.

hmmmm... nope

If your religion is pro-death... go for it.

Mine is pro-life

 

[SkepticThinker]

hmmmm... nope

If your religion is pro-death... go for it.

Mine is pro-life

What?

How about nobody imposes their religion upon anyone else and does their damn jobs as they are supposed to? If you're a doctor, and I need medical attention, give it to me. It's as simple as that.

Do you think I can get a job at a slaughterhouse and then claim on religious grounds that I can't slaughter pigs? What would be the point of me working there? Maybe that's not the job for me, right? Where does this nonsense end?

 

[Kenny]

What?

How about nobody imposes their religion upon anyone else and does their damn jobs as they are supposed to? If you're a doctor, and I need medical attention, give it to me. It's as simple as that.

Do you think I can get a job at a slaughterhouse and then claim on religious grounds that I can't slaughter pigs? What would be the point of me working there? Maybe that's not the job for me, right? Where does this nonsense end?

Doctors are suppose to bring healing to people. If an abortion is necessary it is because another life is at stake.

I think what you are offering is nonsense.

A doctor who holds to the hippocratic oath of protecting life should have the right to exercise his freedom.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Doctors are suppose to bring healing to people. If an abortion is necessary it is because another life is at stake.

Doctors are supposed to provide medical attention to their patients. Whatever their patient needs.
Why do you think a doctor, who willingly signed up to be a doctor and all that comes with it, has the right to impose their religious views onto their patients and expect their patients to abide by them? Someone else's religious beliefs should have no bearing on anyone but the person holding the belief. A doctor who refuses to perform medical procedures shouldn't be a doctor in the first place, since they are incapable of fully pero

I think what you are offering is nonsense.

I think what you are offering is nonsense, which I think was evident in the example that I gave that you've completely ignored here.

If you can't perform certain tasks that a job requires, that you shouldn't be holding that job. Give it to someone else who can actually perform all the duties required.
It's not fair to patients for doctors to pick and choose what conditions they will treat when they are a freaking doctor. It's also potentially dangerous to the patient and his/her health.

A doctor who holds to the hippocratic oath of protecting life should have the right to exercise his freedom.

On what grounds? You seem to think that it's totally cool for people to impose their religious beliefs onto other people, even if it's detrimental to their health. Why do you think a doctor - who signed up for everything that job entails - should be able to impose their religious beliefs upon their patients, but not vice versa? Like why can't the patient just say, "Well, my religious beliefs dictate that abortions are alright so you have to give me one" ... ? Why does it only work one way but not the other?

And why don't you understand that freedom of religion also carries with it freedom from religion?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

EXACTLY! You shouldn't do that

When an employee is denied normal health insurance because their employer has had the insurance company cut stuff out of the standard policy that violates the business owner's religious taboos, the business owner is pushing their religious views on other people.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Doctors are suppose to bring healing to people. If an abortion is necessary it is because another life is at stake.

I think what you are offering is nonsense.

A doctor who holds to the hippocratic oath of protecting life should have the right to exercise his freedom.

The actual oath that doctors swear generally compels them to provide abortions when:

- the abortion is medically indicated
- the patient consents
- their scope of practice includes abortions
- no other doctor is available

A doctor who isn't comfortable with performing abortions or providing related services can accommodate their beliefs by not taking a job that might require them to provide an abortion.

OTOH, a doctor who has voluntarily put themselves in a position where they know they might be relied upon to provide these services - and have accepted the pay that goes along with their promise - has made their choice and should be expected to uphold the trust that the medical system has placed in them and that they have freely accepted.

 

[Kenny]

Doctors are supposed to provide medical attention to their patients. Whatever their patient needs.

I'm a drug addict and I want more Oxycodone
..

Got it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm a drug addict and I want more Oxycodone
..

Got it.

Out of curiousity: do you think this comparison is honest or fair?