HIV Drug Violates "Religious Freedom"

[Kenny]

Nothing is being imposed on the doctor; they're there voluntarily. - FACT

All that's being asked of the doctor is to uphold their end of an agreement that they freely made, and that they can be released from at any time by quitting. FACT

You ignored my point about the Hippocratic oath and what you believe what a doctor should do vs what he believes a doctor should do

 

[Kenny]

@KenS -


If, despite all this, they choose a job where their personal views and job duties will be in conflict, an honest anti-choicer also won't ever be put in the position of having to refuse to participate in an abortion: if they're up front with the employer right from the beginning that they'll refuse to do part of their job, they just won't get the job.

... and if they arrive at their anti-choice views after they're already in the job, an honest anti-choicer would quit rather than continue in the job on false pretenses.

Now on these point ... I can wholeheartedly agree.

Took us a while but we got there

 

[SkepticThinker]

You really didn't address my points. In addition, a doctor does not find out what the "requirements of the patients" are. The doctor tells the patient what the requirements are to treat what they have.

I addressed all of your points and countered them with my own.

A doctor finds out what the "requirements of the patient" are, when they examine and diagnose the patient and then go forward with the patient to decide the best treatment for the situation.

Also, we are talking about one issue here (it seems) abortion.

Not to mention, one is never "forced" to build someone a house, "forced" to take a person's picture, "forced" to offer grocery products... I think you are layering your viewpoint into irrelevancy.

Your position would mean, "I am your client and I DEMAND you to offer Mike Lindell's pillows"

No, it would not. My position would be that I go to Mike Lindell to buy a pillow and he says to me "It's against my religious beliefs to sell a pillow to a woman."

The doctor is the one doing the imposing. The doctor is the one demanding that his religious views are relevant to someone else's medical treatment.

Ok... I think we took it too far. Just what "religious convictions" are you talking about.

Um, the ones I just explained.

Again... "You are a Jewish meat supplier. I DEMAND that you provide pork to me. You signed up to be a meat market provider!"

Ridiculous, right?

If you want an abortion - go to Pregnancy Removal Corporation.

It's ridiculous alright, but not for the reason you seem to think.

If you were a meat supplier who bought a deli that sold pork, agreed to sell pork, and advertised that you sell pork, it wouldn't be ridiculous of the customer at all to expect to receive pork products from that deli. That's the part of this you keep ignoring again and again. Despite the fact that @9-10ths_Penguin keeps pointing it out to you. The doctor has voluntarily put him/herself in their position. They could have chosen many, many other fields of medicine where they wouldn't be anywhere near abortions. But they didn't. And you think it's okay for them to impose their religious beliefs onto their patients who don't hold those views. Why?

"Pregnancy Removal Corporation" doesn't exist. OB-GYNs perform most abortions in the US.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Now on these point ... I can wholeheartedly agree.

Took us a while but we got there

So then you can agree that there's no need to accommodate doctors who refuse to perform abortions.

Doctors who object enough to abortions that they'd refuse to participate in one can manage themselves by not putting themselves in the position where a patient would rely on them for abortion services.

 

[Kenny]

A doctor finds out what the "requirements of the patient" are, when they examine and diagnose the patient and then go forward with the patient to decide the best treatment for the situation.

False and doesn't match your application or reality. The patient can decide NOT to do it and the doctor can say "I will NOT operate because you will die on the operating table... I don't care what you say".

And again, doctor, "I will NOT treat you because you haven't had a covid test" even if the patient says "treat me".

No, it would not. My position would be that I go to Mike Lindell to buy a pillow and he says to me "It's against my religious beliefs to sell a pillow to a woman."

The doctor is the one doing the imposing. The doctor is the one demanding that his religious views are relevant to someone else's medical treatment.

So you change you story to fit your point as I did mine.

It's ridiculous alright, but not for the reason you seem to think.

If you were a meat supplier who bought a deli that sold pork, agreed to sell pork, and advertised that you sell pork, it wouldn't be ridiculous of the customer at all to expect to receive pork products from that deli. That's the part of this you keep ignoring again and again. Despite the fact that @9-10ths_Penguin keeps pointing it out to you. The doctor has voluntarily put him/herself in their position. They could have chosen many, many other fields of medicine where they wouldn't be anywhere near abortions. But they didn't. And you think it's okay for them to impose their religious beliefs onto their patients who don't hold those views. Why?

Again.. you changed the goal posts to fit your need.

You are demanding that the Jewish person sell pork as you are demanding that a doctor do an abortion.

 

[Kenny]

So then you can agree that there's no need to accommodate doctors who refuse to perform abortions.

Doctors who object enough to abortions that they'd refuse to participate in one can manage themselves by not putting themselves in the position where a patient would rely on them for abortion services.

You went from agreement to twisting. Why? The word "wicked" has the root word of "twisting" like the twisted "wicker" basket.

 

[SkepticThinker]

False and doesn't match your application or reality. The patient can decide NOT to do it and the doctor can say "I will NOT operate because you will die on the operating table... I don't care what you say".

You think this ...

A doctor finds out what the "requirements of the patient" are, when they examine and diagnose the patient and then go forward with the patient to decide the best treatment for the situation.

... Is false? In what universe?

And again, doctor, "I will NOT treat you because you haven't had a covid test" even if the patient says "treat me".

What? For COVID? This has, what, to do with what I said?

So you change you story to fit your point as I did mine.

I haven't changed any story. I'm saying the same thing I've been saying all along. Notice how you didn't address it here, except to accuse me of changing my story.

Again.. you changed the goal posts to fit your need.

Again, its the very same thing I've been saying for this entire discussion.

You are demanding that the Jewish person sell pork as you are demanding that a doctor do an abortion.

I'm demanding that a person do the stuff that is required from the profession that they willingly signed up for. I seriously don't understand what you're not understanding about this.
A Jewish person who doesn't want to sell pork, shouldn't buy a pork business and advertise that they sell pork, unless they are going to sell pork. Same goes for doctors.

This comparison isn't really apt anyway, because people seek medical treatment because they require it, rather than for personal enjoyment. Receiving medical treatment isn't the same thing as buying a pulled pork sandwich.

 

[Kenny]

You think this ...

A doctor finds out what the "requirements of the patient" are, when they examine and diagnose the patient and then go forward with the patient to decide the best treatment for the situation.

... Is false? In what universe?

That isn't what I said. please reread.

What? For COVID? This has, what, to do with what I said?

No... he was not feeling well and wanted the doctor to check him out.

First question, "Have you had a covid test?"

Answer, "no".

Doctor, "I will not check you or treat you until you have a covid test".

I haven't changed any story. I'm saying the same thing I've been saying all along. Notice how you didn't address it here, except to accuse me of changing my story.

No... you changed the story

I'm demanding that a person do the stuff that is required from the profession that they willingly signed up for. I seriously don't understand what you're not understanding about this.
A Jewish person who doesn't want to sell pork, shouldn't buy a pork business and advertise that they sell pork, unless they are going to sell pork. Same goes for doctors.

This comparison isn't really apt anyway, because people seek medical treatment because they require it, rather than for personal enjoyment. Receiving medical treatment isn't the same thing as buying a pulled pork sandwich.

You are recreating my story to fit your belief system. Go reread my story in context.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You really didn't address my points. In addition, a doctor does not find out what the "requirements of the patients" are. The doctor tells the patient what the requirements are to treat what they have.

Also, we are talking about one issue here (it seems) abortion.

Not to mention, one is never "forced" to build someone a house, "forced" to take a person's picture, "forced" to offer grocery products... I think you are layering your viewpoint into irrelevancy.

Your position would mean, "I am your client and I DEMAND you to offer Mike Lindell's pillows"

Nobody dies from the lack of a pillow.

In professions where others rely on the professional for their life - e.g. doctor, firefighter, or even the crew on a ship - the professional generally doesn't have the liberty to abandon their duties at a critical time.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You ignored my point about the Hippocratic oath and what you believe what a doctor should do vs what he believes a doctor should do

What do you mean by "the Hippocratic oath"?

Doctors these days often swear oaths in medical school that are inspired by - but are not exactly - the Hippocratic oath. However, the thing they're legally obliged to follow is the medical code of ethics of the body that licenses them (e.g. a state or provincial government).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You went from agreement to twisting. Why? The word "wicked" has the root word of "twisting" like the twisted "wicker" basket.

There's no twisting. It's the implication of what you say you agree with.

 

[Kenny]

What do you mean by "the Hippocratic oath"?

.

Nor shall any man's entreaty prevail upon me to administer poison to anyone; neither will I counsel any man to do so. Moreover, I will give no sort of medicine to any pregnant woman, with a view to destroy the child.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

HIV drug mandate violates religious freedom, judge rules

WTH is wrong with Texas? The HIV drug PrEp does not "encourage homosexual behavior". **Sigh** HIV is not relegated to gay people only. Everyone is susceptible.

"One plaintiff in the case, Dr Steven Hotze, argued that covering PrEP drugs for his employees would be contrary to his "sincere religious beliefs"."

"Plaintiffs also wrote that they "do not need or want" to cover the drug in insurance plans "because they are in monogamous relationships with their respective spouses" and "because neither they nor any of their family members are engaged in behaviour that transmits HIV"."

I wonder if they are paying attention to the data that states:

"CDC data shows that nearly one in five new HIV cases in the US are now among women, with the vast majority coming through heterosexual contact."

The light is dim and slight
Deep in the brain of Texas.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Nor shall any man's entreaty prevail upon me to administer poison to anyone; neither will I counsel any man to do so. Moreover, I will give no sort of medicine to any pregnant woman, with a view to destroy the child.

So you're quoting the original version of the Hippocratic Oath that:

- no medical school actually uses

- forbade doctors from performing surgery generally

- required doctors to give their professors money when the professors are hard up for cash

What relevance do you think that oath has to the discussion?

 

[Kenny]

So you're quoting the original version of the Hippocratic Oath that:

- no medical school actually uses

- forbade doctors from performing surgery generally

- required doctors to give their professors money when the professors are hard up for cash

What relevance do you think that oath has to the discussion?

If that is the oath that a doctor believes in... you can't force him

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If that is the oath that a doctor believes in... you can't force him

... to perform surgery?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Nor shall any man's entreaty prevail upon me to administer poison to anyone; neither will I counsel any man to do so. Moreover, I will give no sort of medicine to any pregnant woman, with a view to destroy the child.

"While nearly all U.S. medical school graduations include a public promise, and some use an updated version of Hippocrates’ words, not a single student utters the original Hippocratic Oath.

Instead, today’s medical students recite a vast — and growing — range of oaths. In 2015, more than half of medical school graduations featured an oath unique to that school, compared to 9% in 1982, according to a 2017 Academic Medicine study. What’s more, students increasingly work together before graduations and white coat ceremonies to choose or craft their own oaths, creating a personalized declaration of what it means to be a physician.

Whether borrowing bits from existing oaths or starting from scratch, these students arrive at vows that often blend longstanding ethical values with a range of evolving social and medical issues.

Gratitude, humility, honesty, the shedding of biases, and the pursuit of lifelong learning — all these and more appear. Sometimes, though rarely, there’s also a reference to God.

Students and faculty across the country laud the oath-creation process. “It’s so inspiring every year to see this group of wonderful people come together and commit themselves to the higher ideals for which they are aiming,” says Colleen Wallace, MD, who has led the oath-creation process for five years at Washington University School of Medicine (WUSM) in St. Louis. “It’s inspirational and humbling.”

Modernizing the Hippocratic Oath is an age-old tradition. In fact, experts believe the tweaking began not long after the oath first appeared.

In more recent times, a few other oaths became popular. One, the 1948 Declaration of Geneva, was drafted by the World Medical Association after Nazi physicians conducted barbarous medical experiments. It promises never to act “contrary to the laws of humanity.” Another, a 1964 oath penned by Tufts University School of Medicine Dean Louis Lasagna, MD, emphasizes prevention over cure and a more holistic approach to medicine."
The solemn truth about medical oaths

 

[SkepticThinker]

If that is the oath that a doctor believes in... you can't force him

But it's not.

 

[Kenny]

But it's not.

did you ask them?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

did you ask them?

I see you've given up on even pretending that your arguments are coherent.