Holes in the trinity

[savagewind]

All the answers defining the love of a father for his son are very good. But I believe God speaks accurately always. Accordingly if God really was Jesus then it would be accurate for the words to read "like a son" not "the son". A son is born, that means a beginning. I don't think I can get over that.

 

[Katzpur]

A son is born, that means a beginning. I don't think I can get over that.

I can totally understand your point, but could you conceivably accept that Jesus' birth was the beginning of His physical existance, but not His beginning as a cognizant entity -- a spirit without a physical body? Wouldn't that satisfy both ways of looking at whether or not He had a beginning?

 

[savagewind]

I can totally understand your point, but could you conceivably accept that Jesus' birth was the beginning of His physical existance, but not His beginning as a cognizant entity -- a spirit without a physical body? Wouldn't that satisfy both ways of looking at whether or not He had a beginning?

Ya but, it is what the JWs teach and I done trashed all of that.

It is conceivable he wasn't conceived. I think I know where he came from though. Someone existing without a beginning cannot "come". I believe Jesus the man and Jesus a spirit came from God. He is not God. He is God's son.

 

[Jollybear]

You're saying God is His own Father?

Absolutely, yes, that’s what I am saying. Again I will explain. When God (father) created the universe, then created Adam (his son, little s) he did not birth himself INTO Adam, he lived in Adam, but Adam had his own spirit. Now fast forward to the time period of Jesus. God miraculously gives Mary a baby, and then births himself INTO that flesh. So that would make God the father the father of himself and the Son of himself.

The problem with this is that it is impossible for this essence to exist in all three forms simultaneously. If water is frozen, for instance, it may still be H2O, but it is now ice, not water. Your analogy would have to mean that when God exists as Jesus, He ceases to exist as Jesus' Father. See what I mean?

Actually no, God the father and the Son would still exist in the same essence at the same time. Let me explain. When water in the ocean turns to ice, the top layer turns to ice but the bottom is still liquid in form. So, the liquid and the ice are one in essence, but they STILL exist as two at the same time because there is now ice on top and water below. And there are clouds above (vapor).

No problem.

 

[savagewind]

When God (father) created the universe, then created Adam

What does this mean?

 

[Koldo]

What has the holes isn't the Trinity, but rather your arguments here.

Actually, she does have a point.
Although there are possible answers to it.

 

[Koldo]

You say Jesus is God. But Jesus is God's son. Do you believe in the trinity that God and Jesus is one and that Jesus is God's son? How? The definition of son is someone born to or adopted. That means a beginning. Do you believe God has a beginning?

I don't believe in the trinity, but, i think it is possible that this 'father' and 'son' thing is a figure of speech. If the 'father' created the son's physical body, then they became like father and son.

Just a thought. I am not willing to debate over this, given i don't believe in the trinity.

 

[Katzpur]

Absolutely, yes, that’s what I am saying. Again I will explain. When God (father) created the universe, then created Adam (his son, little s) he did not birth himself INTO Adam, he lived in Adam, but Adam had his own spirit. Now fast forward to the time period of Jesus. God miraculously gives Mary a baby, and then births himself INTO that flesh. So that would make God the father the father of himself and the Son of himself.




Actually no, God the father and the Son would still exist in the same essence at the same time. Let me explain. When water in the ocean turns to ice, the top layer turns to ice but the bottom is still liquid in form. So, the liquid and the ice are one in essence, but they STILL exist as two at the same time because there is now ice on top and water below. And there are clouds above (vapor).

No problem.

Okay, Jollybear... Well, to each his own.

 

[savagewind]

I don't believe in the trinity, but, i think it is possible that this 'father' and 'son' thing is a figure of speech. If the 'father' created the son's physical body, then they became like father and son.

Just a thought. I am not willing to debate over this, given i don't believe in the trinity.

Yes, that is the thought trend, isn't it? The God I believe in has spoken only a few words in relation to all the human words, good and bad. All God's words are very good. I believe God The Cognizant made everything and words too. It is God who decided that a son would be good. I believe God has a son and everything these posters here have said about the Father and Son relationship I believe are mostly true. What you have said is true too (thank you).

But if it is true God is Jesus then The God Who Made Words would have assigned a less confusing name to their relationship, wouldn't he? The son was born to The Father proving the son is NOT the father.

Jesus said that to follow in his steps we must be born again. If he was not born then it's a lie that to be like him we must be born again and God does not lie. I believe YHVH is Christ's power, not Christ's person.

 

[Koldo]

But if it is true God is Jesus then The God Who Made Words would have assigned a less confusing name to their relationship, wouldn't he? The son was born to The Father proving the son is NOT the father.

That is the confusing part of the trinity.
The father is not the son in the trinity either, except they are both God in his entirety.

I think we are just supposed to pretend it makes sense.

 

[Jollybear]

What does this mean?

It means when the Father (God) created adam and eve, the first two people on planet earth, they were his son and daughter because he was the one who created them, they had no human father and mother. So, God, directly gave them birth sorta speak. But they were seperate and distinct persons from the Father (God). But when you come to the time period of Jesus, God creates this body in marries womb, not with the help of a male seed, but directly by his own power. Then God the father fully dwells in this body, Jesus is not his own distinct person, he is God IN the flesh. So, the Father creates this body, then puts himself in it, thus he is the Father of himself and the Son of himself. Anytime the Father takes on form, that form is the Son of the Father and the Father of the form. So God becomes the Father of himself and the Son of himself.

That's what it means. You understand? Any more questions?

 

[Koldo]

It means when the Father (God) created adam and eve, the first two people on planet earth, they were his son and daughter because he was the one who created them, they had no human father and mother. So, God, directly gave them birth sorta speak. But they were seperate and distinct persons from the Father (God). But when you come to the time period of Jesus, God creates this body in marries womb, not with the help of a male seed, but directly by his own power. Then God the father fully dwells in this body, Jesus is not his own distinct person, he is God IN the flesh.

Why does God creating a body in the womb of a woman makes it God in flesh, but creating a body out of the womb of a woman doesn't make it God in flesh?

I don't see a reason for this distinction.

So, the Father creates this body, then puts himself in it, thus he is the Father of himself and the Son of himself. Anytime the Father takes on form, that form is the Son of the Father and the Father of the form. So God becomes the Father of himself and the Son of himself.

That's what it means. You understand? Any more questions?

Does it mean God never takes any appearance other than Jesus'?

 

[savagewind]

Why does God creating a body in the womb of a woman makes it God in flesh, but creating a body out of the womb of a woman doesn't make it God in flesh?

I don't see a reason for this distinction.

Great comment!

 

[InChrist]

Why does God creating a body in the womb of a woman makes it God in flesh, but creating a body out of the womb of a woman doesn't make it God in flesh?

I don't see a reason for this distinction.

I don't quite understand your question.

Does it mean God never takes any appearance other than Jesus'?

[/quote]
The scriptures reveal that God is Spirit and a consuming fire which humans in their sinful condition cannot look at without being completely consumed/destroyed . The Son of God came down to the human level in the flesh so we could relate more easily and personally to God.

 

[Katzpur]

The scriptures reveal that God is Spirit and a consuming fire which humans in their sinful condition cannot look at without being completely consumed/destroyed . The Son of God came down to the human level in the flesh so we could relate more easily and personally to God.

And yet in Acts 7:55-56, we have an example of Stephen, who "...being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

Stephen apparently saw two distinct beings because he was able to determine where the Father and the Son were with respect to each other. Furthermore, he was not completely consumed by a fire or anything else as a result of his experience.

 

[Katzpur]

I can totally understand your point, but could you conceivably accept that Jesus' birth was the beginning of His physical existance, but not His beginning as a cognizant entity -- a spirit without a physical body? Wouldn't that satisfy both ways of looking at whether or not He had a beginning?

Ya but, it is what the JWs teach and I done trashed all of that.

You "done trashed all of that"? You lost me. Would you mind clarifying what you mean by that?

It is conceivable he wasn't conceived.

Wait a sec... The Bible clearly states that a virgin would conceive and give birth to a child. Why would you say He may not have been conceived?

I think I know where he came from though. Someone existing without a beginning cannot "come".

Doesn't that all depend on the context, though. Someone existing prior to His birth certainly come be born as "come" to earth.

I believe Jesus the man and Jesus a spirit came from God. He is not God. He is God's son.

You already know that I'm not a trinitarian any more than you are. With that in mind, please understand that I am not supporting a belief in the Trinity when I say this, but the Bible does state the following:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Could you explain your interpretation of this verse -- particularly the part which says, "the Word was God." Thanks.

 

[savagewind]

You "done trashed all of that"? You lost me. Would you mind clarifying what you mean by that?

I'm just being silly. The religion I came out of is awful silly. I am sure something they taught is true, but I wiped the slate of my mind clean and started over. I was responding to this;

but could you conceivably accept that Jesus' birth was the beginning of His physical existance

I do not believe what the JWs teach that Jesus had a prehuman existance as the angel Michael

The Bible clearly states that a virgin would conceive and give birth to a child. Why would you say He may not have been conceived?

I mean it might be true he was not conceived before time. I believe he was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit.

Could you explain your interpretation of this verse -- particularly the part which says, "the Word was God."

I don't know what it means.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm just being silly. The religion I came out of is awful silly. I am sure something they taught is true, but I wiped the slate of my mind clean and started over. I was responding to this;
I do not believe what the JWs teach that Jesus had a prehuman existance as the angel Michael.

You were a JW? I didn't know that. I agree with you that Jesus was not ever the archangel Michael. Actually, if you no longer believe in the Trinity, though, you didn't really wipe the slate clean. You got that from the JWs. You just need to figure out exactly who and what you now believe Jesus to be while making sure you don't contradict the scriptures. And that's something people have been trying to do since Jesus' day.

I don't know what it means.

Well, there's nothing wrong with not knowing something. Too many people refuse to admit that there's something they don't know.

 

[yokomodoful]

You say Jesus is God. But Jesus is God's son. Do you believe in the trinity that God and Jesus is one and that Jesus is God's son? How? The definition of son is someone born to or adopted. That means a beginning. Do you believe God has a beginning?

The book of Revelation answers this. More specifically in 1:8 and 1:17
Revelation 1:8-18
8 'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, who is, who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.
9 I, John, your brother and partner in hardships, in the kingdom and in perseverance in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos on account of the Word of God and of witness to Jesus;
10 it was the Lord's Day and I was in ecstasy, and I heard a loud voice behind me, like the sound of a trumpet, saying,
11 'Write down in a book all that you see, and send it to the seven churches of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.'
12 I turned round to see who was speaking to me, and when I turned I saw seven golden lamp-stands
13 and, in the middle of them, one like a Son of man, dressed in a long robe tied at the waist with a belt of gold.
14 His head and his hair were white with the whiteness of wool, like snow, his eyes like a burning flame,
15 his feet like burnished bronze when it has been refined in a furnace, and his voice like the sound of the ocean.
16 In his right hand he was holding seven stars, out of his mouth came a sharp sword, double-edged, and his face was like the sun shining with all its force.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead, but he laid his right hand on me and said, 'Do not be afraid; it is I, the First and the Last; I am the Living One,
18 I was dead and look -- I am alive for ever and ever, and I hold the keys of death and of Hades.

 

[savagewind]

The book of Revelation answers this. More specifically in 1:8 and 1:17
Revelation 1:8-18
8 'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, who is, who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.
9 I, John, your brother and partner in hardships, in the kingdom and in perseverance in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos on account of the Word of God and of witness to Jesus;
10 it was the Lord's Day and I was in ecstasy, and I heard a loud voice behind me, like the sound of a trumpet, saying,
11 'Write down in a book all that you see, and send it to the seven churches of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.'
12 I turned round to see who was speaking to me, and when I turned I saw seven golden lamp-stands
13 and, in the middle of them, one like a Son of man, dressed in a long robe tied at the waist with a belt of gold.
14 His head and his hair were white with the whiteness of wool, like snow, his eyes like a burning flame,
15 his feet like burnished bronze when it has been refined in a furnace, and his voice like the sound of the ocean.
16 In his right hand he was holding seven stars, out of his mouth came a sharp sword, double-edged, and his face was like the sun shining with all its force.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead, but he laid his right hand on me and said, 'Do not be afraid; it is I, the First and the Last; I am the Living One,
18 I was dead and look -- I am alive for ever and ever, and I hold the keys of death and of Hades.

Is your point that it says he is Almighty and also that he is Jesus?

I agree it is Jesus who it is about. But Almighty means all ruling and it is true imo that Jesus was given the throne of The Father and that rulership has been handed over to him, The Son who is not The Father.

Almighty Strong's 3841 unrestricted power exercising absolute dominion. which belongs to 'Jesus' alone until he hands it back to The Father. 1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

What was accomplished at the death of the son? Was it not the handing over of the Kingdom of God to him? So now he is almighty in relation to judgement. He is not The Almighty God.