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Hominid fossils, and Islam

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Qur'an states Adam to have been physically and mentally 'superior' to modern man. Archaic hominids are both smaller and less intellectually developed.
I'm not an expert, but I think it's actually debatable who was physically "superior". Wiki said Homo erectus walked upright more efficiently than modern humans, because we had to evolve wider pelvises to birth babies with bigger brains. Furthermore, smaller stature does not mean less physical strength, as anyone who has dealt with a chimpanzee can tell you! I believe many of the smaller hominids were stronger than modern humans.
 

maro

muslimah
In your opinion, would it necessarily conflict with the Islamic view if the ancient ape-like ancestors, before Adam, had primate ancestors, who were also the ancestors of modern chimps, gorillas, etc.?

Yes ,it would conflict

because we don't believe Adam (pbuh) had ancestors
nor do we believe modern humans and Apes have a common ancestor ,but two entirely separate groups that might have looked more similar at a time than they do now

There 's no scientific necesisity to assume a narration of macroevolution..and then label it " what science says ".....As far as the fossils can tell about our ancestors ,i see absloutely no contradiction with my islamic creed...on the contrary ,i find it to be very enlightening and it deepens my understanding of who we really are
 

maro

muslimah
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Qur'an states Adam to have been physically and mentally 'superior' to modern man. Archaic hominids are both smaller and less intellectually developed.

I don't think the quran says such a thing.
 

DeitySlayer

President of Chindia
I don't think the quran says such a thing.

Ah my bad it was hadith.

"(Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 543(SB 4.55.543) -
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall..."

The fossil record of hominids demonstrates an increase, not decrease in size.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't see anything in this thread that suggests that *animals * were transformed into *human beings*

Why do you assume that those ancestors ,who might have shared more physical traits with apes ,than us were *animals * ?
Why not our human ancestors back to Adam (PBUH) ?

Islamically speaking ,what makes a distinction between an animal and a human being ?

I'm still trying to learn, but from how i understand so far, those ancestors appear to be inferior to us because they ceased to exist, and that's how natural selection work. The stronger and more capable a being is, the more it's able to survive.

Now when i come to think of it, i remember that in the Quran there were some stories about some human beings who look slightly different than us, and speak also differently, when i say speak differently, not that they speak a different language, but that they communicate in some weird way that resemble the way how some animals communicate.

[93] Until, when he reached (a tract) between two mountains, he found, beneath them, a people who scarcely understood a word.


[94] They said: "O Zul-qarnain! the Gog and Magog (people) do great mischief on earth: shall we then render thee tribute in order that thou mightest erect a barrier between us and them? (Quran 18:93)

Also the Gog and Magog people are recoreded in Tafseer to look very different from us.

I don't claim that these findings today are of those people, but i'm just giving an example of the possibility.

And to answer your question, the distunction between us and human beings is the intellect, not the physical structure.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not an expert, but I think it's actually debatable who was physically "superior". Wiki said Homo erectus walked upright more efficiently than modern humans, because we had to evolve wider pelvises to birth babies with bigger brains. Furthermore, smaller stature does not mean less physical strength, as anyone who has dealt with a chimpanzee can tell you! I believe many of the smaller hominids were stronger than modern humans.

How about their intellect?
 
How about their intellect?
Our most recent ancestors and cousins had brains as big as ours, used tools, and fire, and created primitive cave artwork and had ritualistic burials. So, intellectually, they were as smart as modern humans ("modern" as in 300,000 years ago up to the present). However, our older ancestors and cousins had smaller brains and no evidence of tools, etc. Here's a convenient table of brain sizes (range, average):
Comparison of Cranial Capacities range (cm3), average (cm3)
chimpanzees 300-500, ----
australopithecines 390-545, ----
Homo habilis 509-752, 610
Homo erectus 750-1250, 930
Homo heidelbergensis
1100-1390, 1206
Neandertals 1200-1750, 1450
modern Homo sapiens 900-1880, 1345

Note:
There is a considerable range in body size among
modern Homo sapiens, including large numbers of small
people. Subsequently, the average brain size is smaller
than would initially seem likely. However, the average for
some modern populations (especially European and most
African ones) is slightly larger than that of Neandertals.
Evolution of Modern Humans:* Neandertals

By the way, better intellectual ability does not necessarily mean better survival. A smaller brain requires less energy to grow and sustain, which can be a benefit to survival. So big brain / small brain are two different survival strategies with advantages and disadvantages.
 
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Yes ,it would conflict

because we don't believe Adam (pbuh) had ancestors
nor do we believe modern humans and Apes have a common ancestor ,but two entirely separate groups that might have looked more similar at a time than they do now

There 's no scientific necesisity to assume a narration of macroevolution..and then label it " what science says ".....As far as the fossils can tell about our ancestors ,i see absloutely no contradiction with my islamic creed...on the contrary ,i find it to be very enlightening and it deepens my understanding of who we really are
But, you've already accepted macroevolution, haven't you? You've accepted that modern humans (Homo sapiens) evolved from Australopithecus, which although similar to humans in some ways, was a different species from modern humans. If there was an Australopithecus around today, it would not be able to successfully breed with us. Furthermore, the differences between Australopithecus and Homo sapiens are not dramatically greater than the differences between Australopithecus and the earliest primates, who were also the ancestors of modern apes. If Australopithecus can evolve into Homo sapiens why couldn't the earliest primates evolve into Australopithecus? Where's the magical barrier separating them? And where did Australopithecus come from if it didn't evolve from earlier primates?

The other thing is, this really is "what science says". Read any book about primates, or biology. Ask any scientist who studies biology or primates. I'm not misrepresenting the scientific consensus.
 
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Ria23

New Member
"(Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 543(SB 4.55.543) - Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall..."

so, 85 to 110 feet or 25.8 to 33.6 meters.

which calls to the mind the essay "On Being the Right Size" by J.B.S. Haldane:
[SIZE=+0]
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]Let us take the most obvious of possible cases, and consider a giant man sixty feet high—about the height of Giant Pope and Giant Pagan in the illustrated Pilgrim’s Progress of my childhood. These monsters were not only ten times as high as Christian, but ten times as wide and ten times as thick, so that their total weight was a thousand times his, or about eighty to ninety tons. Unfortunately the cross sections of their bones were only a hundred times those of Christian, so that every square inch of giant bone had to support ten times the weight borne by a square inch of human bone. As the human thigh-bone breaks under about ten times the human weight, Pope and Pagan would have broken their thighs every time they took a step. This was doubtless why they were sitting down in the picture I remember.[/SIZE]
 

newhope101

Active Member
I have already pointed out that evolutionists disagree on how fossils should be classified, which species they belong to, etc. True enough. But according to evolutionary thinking, these fossils come from a number of closely related species intermediate between apes and humans. If this is so, we would expect to find that some of them are hard to classify, and we do.

Creationists, on the other hand, assert that apes and humans are separated by a wide gap. If this is true, deciding on which side of that gap individual fossils lie should be trivially easy. Clearly, that is not the case.

This was a fairly simple but excellent summation of the evidence in relation to the creation/evolution controversy. Quite clearly ToE wins. I was convinced for 5 seconds then questioned just how much do skulls and fossils tell us. However, rather than believe me or anyone else go learn yourself. As academic and overwhelming the field of genetics and all the arguments are on RF it really isn’t that hard to get a basic grasp and see what‘s going on and what evidence is really there.

The other convincing argument for ToE is that all living creatures share DNA, less as they go down the evolutionary chart, as ToE predicts. Modern humans are around 99.9% similar, humans are 99.5% similar to Neanderthal, 98.6% similar to a chimpanzee (our closest relative), humans share 70% of their genes with a sea sponge. This is proof we all came from common decent, not just humans but all life. However, lately there is debate about just how important genes are and that gene expression, RNA, is what’s important. Think of an chimp, think of a human…there’s a huge difference expressed by that 1.6% difference.

A good place to start is on Wikipedia - Neanderthal. See for yourself all the debate. Then just keep questioning. Some whole creatures are built from a few bones. There are lots of Neanderthal bones. See how apish he looks.The apish picture is what scientists came up with prior to genetic testing. These days he is depicted as any other human. Scientists found some DNA in well preserved Neanderthal bones and tested it. It took recent advances in genetic testing to change the look of the face…same bones though.

This one example illustrates how science brainwashes the general uninformed public. I thought the sketches were made with scientific knowledge. This is what the public is lead to believe. Quite obviously they are sketched to fit in with ToE, and scientists have no idea.
 
In contrast to man, apes tend to have incisor and canine teeth that are relatively larger than their molars. Ape teeth usually have thin enamel (the hardest surface layer of the tooth), while humans generally have thicker enamel. Finally, the jaws tend to be more U-shaped in apes and more parabolic in man.

The problem in declaring a fossil ape to be a human ancestor (i.e., a hominid) on the basis of certain humanlike features of the teeth is that some living apes have these same features and they are not considered to be ancestors of man. Some species of modern baboons, for example, have relatively small canines and incisors and relatively large molars. While most apes do have thin enamel, some apes, such as the orangutans, have relatively thick enamel. Clearly, teeth tell us more about an animal’s diet and feeding habits than its supposed evolution. Nonetheless, thick enamel is one of the most commonly cited criteria for declaring an ape fossil to be a hominid. Many fossils are put together from pieces. Don't forget there was cohabitation amongst the various species. Also look up the 'species problem'. This is another way the public can be fed conflicting information that apparently makes sence. Look up Mitochondrial Eve, and try to understand the myth that ensued to explain her. ALL females alive at Eve's time MUST have had lineages that ALL ended up in only males or no children. Yet scientists have no problem accepting this claim. This fits with ToE. Similarly look up "Y chromosomal Adam".

Then there’s radiometric dating. Look into it and the preconditions that must be around for it to give valid dates. I have a few examples of this method giving inaccurate dates. However if the dating does not fit ToE it is disregarded as an anomoly Here’s just one example-

"A hominid species assumed to be an ancestor of homosapiens "Erectus" was thought to have vanished some 250,000 years ago. But even though he used two different dating methods, Swisher kept making the same startling find: the bones were 53,000 years old at most and possibly no more than 27,000 years, a stretch of time contemporaneous with modern humans."
-Leslie Kaufman, "Did a Third Human Species Live Among Us?" Newsweek (Dec. 23,1996), p. 52.

I’ve looked at just a couple of little points here. If someone refutes me. That's OK. You go look up their information but look at more sites. Don’t just use a biology book. You won’t find the latest info in them. Look at the internet, Science daily, google topics to see opposing opinions. Look at RF forums and the refutes and go look it up for yourself. That’s the best thing to do. Scientists refute each other…and they are often equally credentialed. Then others provide a scientific refute to that, then there’s a refute of the refute. It may not be as clear as what you believe. Honestly…go see!

In the end I am not trying to say that ToE is a lie, I just don’t believe it is a fact. My personal view…One cannot be surprised that there are sceptics. You need to learn and make up your own mind.
 
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Ria23

New Member
I’ve looked at just a couple of little points here. If someone refutes me. That's OK. You go look up their information but look at more sites. Don’t just use a biology book. You won’t find the latest info in them.

I would go with a beginner's book on genetics, evolution and/or human evolution. if you don't have the broad strokes concepts first, having the latest and most comprehensive information won't help you. the details actually get in the way of understanding. (but then I do tend, in NLP terms, to chunk for large bits of information rather than for details. I get lost in factoids and details.)

also, if you want to give effective arguments against evolution, knowing evolutionary theory will give you the best tools to do it. learn what evolutionists say, then you can come back later with your stinging counterarguments the next time you argue about it. come one, learn some science. your faith demands it!
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
I have a question... I hope it's ok in this thread.

Does Allah making humanity though evolution... as part of a long struggle for existence by species over millions of years, any less noble or grand than having sculpted us from dust?

Is it necessary to take the story of Adam as utterly literal? Or is there some room for poetry in the tale of humanities beginnings?

wa:do
 

newhope101

Active Member
Ria23..bla bla bla. Ria's response is typical. If one is skeptical of any aspect of Toe one is stupid and unlearned. On your journey for understanding you will see many scientists attest there must be a God. Even Stephen Hawkins, a physicist and long held atheist is saying there must be a God. Look him up.

Toe is about species changing into new species. Strange. species is a term which science itself cannot define. Very convenient. They may even put a chimp into the homo line as a result of recent findings.

The new study found that 99.4 percent of the most critical DNA sites are identical in the corresponding human and chimp genes. With that close a relationship, the two living chimp species belong in the genus Homo, says Morris Goodman of Wayne State University in Detroit.

Honestly at what point does one realize these guys do not know what they are doing other than trying to make it all fit and keep ToE alive.

No faith has come up with some idea of when God gave mankind the hope of eternal life. He just did. At what point did we become human? Others believe all living creatures get reincarnated.

Scientists have got so much wrong. Toe supporters need not worry. Scientists will make up some theory to explain it or refute it and make it all fit. Hypothesis is the faith of ToE.

Actually genetic testing has apparently proved we have common ancestors "mitochondrial Eve" and "Y chromosome Adam". Look it up and see how they turn this evidence to fit Toe..with a great myth that requires great faith to believe. Not a problem for the educated evolutionist.

Genetic testing has been improved greatly recently. No biology book can keep up to date. New information is continuous. Below yet another dilemma that has appeared in scientific journals..there are hundreds...Toe supporters will say this is nit picking. In other words, no matter what, how or when, humans were once chimps.


News update, June 2009

Since their initial publication on Tiktaalik, paleontologists Neil Shubin, Edward Daeschler, and Farish Jenkins, have continued to study its remarkable fossils. This past year, the team, now joined by Jason Downs, announced the results of a detailed analysis of Tiktaalik's skull.
Like its limbs, Tiktaalik's skull has a mix of traits that resemble fish in some ways and land-dwelling tetrapods in others. For an example, just look to your right or left. We tetrapods have necks, and so can keep our bodies still while moving our heads. Modern fish and Tiktaalik's ancestors, on the other hand, are neck-less and cannot. In this respect, Tiktaalik was more like us. Tiktaalik had lost some bones in its head, giving it a more mobile neck — which would have allowed it to rest its body on the bottom of a shallow pool and still turn its head to snap up food. The new study also revealed that the bones of Tiktaalik's skull were somewhere between tetrapods' and fishes' in terms of how much they could move relative to one another. Our skulls, for example, are rigid and fused, whereas Tiktaalik's ancestors had more joints in their skulls, which allowed the bones to move to help with feeding and breathing underwater. Tiktaalik's skull fell between these two extremes. It still had some fish-like joints, but had evolved to be more rigid and stiff than that of its ancestors.


News update, June 2010
In 2010, scientists announced the discovery of fossil footprints that may call into question the timing of the evolution of four-legged vertebrates (i.e., tetrapods). Tiktaalik represents a close relative of the ancestor of tetrapods, and its fossils date to 375 million years ago. The first unambiguous fossils of tetrapod bones (e.g. Acanthostega) date to just after that time. These and many other lines of evidence support the idea that the first tetrapods evolved around then, probably between 385 and 391 million years ago. However, that date now seems less certain.
In January of this year, a group of Polish and Swedish paleontologists announced the discovery of nearly 400 million-year-old fossil footprints that seem to have belonged to a fully-formed tetrapod. If a full blown tetrapod was around 400 million years ago, the earliest tetrapods must have evolved long before then! Tiktaalik's fossils may be younger than the first tetrapods.
If scientists come to a consensus about the date of these footprints and the fact that they belonged to a tetrapod, would it contradict Tiktaalik's status as a transitional form? No. Tiktaalik's position on the evolutionary tree of tetrapod ancestors wouldn't change a bit — after all, Tiktaalik would still have all the characteristics that help us understand the order and way in which tetrapods evolved. However, it would imply that Tiktaalik and early tetrapods like Acanthostega have long ghost lineages — a series of ancestors that lived but did not leave behind a fossil record. In other words, our best hypothesis regarding the evolutionary relationships among these organisms would not change, but we'd have to reevaluate the likely dates we assign to different branching points on the family tree of tetrapods and move many of them back in time.
 
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DeitySlayer

President of Chindia
Toe is about species changing into new species. Strange. species is a term which science itself cannot define. Very convenient.

A species is a population of organisms which is capable of reproducing with each other to have fertile offspring. Horses and donkeys are two different species, because although they can reproduce with each other, the offspring are not fertile.

They may even put a chimp into the homo line as a result of recent findings.

The 'Homo line' is at genus level, the one above species. This does not involve a redefining of species.

Actually genetic testing has apparently proved we have common ancestors "mitochondrial Eve" and "Y chromosome Adam". Look it up and see how they turn this evidence to fit Toe..with a great myth that requires great faith to believe. Not a problem for the educated evolutionist.

Genetic and family trees are two separate issues. Look it up yourself. They were not two individuals who lived at the same place, or even the same time.
 

newhope101

Active Member
Deityslayer, a chimp is not currently seen in the homo genus line. Homo meaning human. The chimp having as much as 99.4% human genes clearly and obviously indicates that there is more to species diffentiation than genes alone. There is research that indicates that humans today are only 1% different from each other. This does not make any sense to the lay person. Only educated evolutionists could possibly understand that sort of babble and conflict without a problem. Even a moron can pick up on the message here. What science has proven so far is that apes are human, and that is ridiculous. Gene expression research is the buzz that will save Toe, you should hope!

Another point that is very clear is that neanderthalls and the human line were supposedly separated for over 500,000 years. Yet were able to successfully mate. How many supposed species had evolved to this point within each line? General research shows the problems with different species and subspecies mating. However Toe willingly accepts that we were incredibly lucky and against all odds it happened and what's more, produced viable offspring. For over 500,00 years separate lines of humans evolved and remained similar enough to mate. Although scientists state it was as a result of possibly only one of two matings, does not diminish the fact that it appears to have happened and incredibly successfully. Another convenient bottle neck in evolution perhaps? And just like 'Eve', a spate of hypothesis to try to expalin it. Again the almost impossible is accepted then twisted to suit by hypothesis of the facts.

Re your reply to "eve". Again I say the evidence is we came from a common ancestor. That is the evidence. The rest is hypothesis of the data.

So for over half a million years no particular change in these lines, with at least 4 intermittent so called 'new species' in each line since the proposed common ancestor. Different species are not supposed to be able to mate. This is a major tenant that has been muddied to suit. Since we split from chimps only 0.6% the difference, and they expect this to get to 100% with more testing. How convenient it would have been for say a 50% result. That would appear to be more in line with ToE.

I can also post many examples of dating methods having proved false. It's just one lot of rubbish backed up by another load of rubbish and hypothesis. Toe is a great theory. Maybe some actual scientific evidence will come to light one day. So far, recent scientific genetic evidence just throws ToE into disarray.

Biology classes probably still teach the old stuff, as one can discern from the educated replies.

If anyones faith is based on the creation please do not loose it over chimps turning into chumps.
 
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Hey guys ---- this is the Islam Discuss Individual Religions (DIR) forum. Please, no debating, and ask respectful questions about Islam only! Thanks. :)

(Yes, I know I'm a hypocrite because I always forget these rules, too. :p )
 
Mr Spinkles said:
In your opinion, would it necessarily conflict with the Islamic view if the ancient ape-like ancestors, before Adam, had primate ancestors, who were also the ancestors of modern chimps, gorillas, etc.?

Yes ,it would conflict

because we don't believe Adam (pbuh) had ancestors
nor do we believe modern humans and Apes have a common ancestor ,but two entirely separate groups that might have looked more similar at a time than they do now
Okay, what if we said hominids evolved from earlier primates and shared a common ancestor with apes, BUT while the natural process of evolution was going on, God specially-created one individual hominid (Adam) who had no ancestors; and all modern humans descended from this particular individual, perhaps evolving along the way. Would that conflict with Islam, in your opinion?

Thanks for your answers and for your patience!
 

Ria23

New Member
Ria23..bla bla bla. Ria's response is typical. If one is skeptical of any aspect of Toe one is stupid and unlearned. On your journey for understanding you will see many scientists attest there must be a God. Even Stephen Hawkins, a physicist and long held atheist is saying there must be a God. Look him up.

@newhope: you missed out on some of the context behind my last post.

first off, I believe in evolution. I wanted to provide a win-win scenario. if you read about the theory of evolution (particularly as it applies to humans) and decide for yourself that it couldn't work that way, you'll have a more effective arsenal against the existing scientific theories. OTOH, if you come to the conclusion that evolution doesn't exist, you'll also won.

as to the last two sentences, that doesn't have anything to do with my posts one way or the other or really with this thread. the idea behind this thread had to do with a particular theistic religion and how the theory of evolution contradicts a literal reading of the Bible (which Muslims believe) and certain Hadiths. (and the Koran itself? I dont know. I don't know that the Koran makes specific references to Creation, etc.)
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
*****Mod Post*****
Because debate is not allowed in the DIR, this thread has been moved to science vs religion so we can keep this thread open.
 
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