Homosexuality and Homosexual Marriages: Why do Christians Care?

[Jainarayan]

I would very much like to switch to biblical debate, but so far my faith is merely incidental to my arguments about homosexuality.

That's not going to happen. I have no interest in the bible. The only interest I have in the bible is when people try to use it as a club and use it to try to justify discrimination and reject science. Other than that the bible is irrelevent to me.

 

[omega2xx]

That was a specific example, and I even offered my own experience as a teenager who was psychologically tormented--to the point of becoming suicidal and wishing to die--by the Church and their insistence that I am flawed, an abomination, and that god thinks I should die anyways (it really doesn't come off as "loving the sinner, hating the sin" when you're reminded, time and time again, moreso than any other sin, your very existence god finds offensive. More often than not Christianity is a bane to the existence of the LBGT community as a whole, the Bible justifies such negative thinking and even commands it, and it puts a frightening and tragic number of youth at high risk of suicide because the doctrine is toxic.
I could also go on about how abusive Christians were to me after I left the church, and how mean they can be towards atheists (to the point of making their god seem like a real jerk by saying he "doesn't believe in atheists.").

Your brush is still too wide. You can't use a personal experience as a typical example.

You attended a church that did not follow the teachings of the Bible. Being a member of a church and calling our self a Christians does not make us a Christian. That church seems more like a cult than a Christians church.

If we are to love our enemies, we should also love homosexuals. Real Christians should Never preach or tolerate hate. True Christianity is not a bane. WE speak against it because God does, but we do not advocate violence or derogatory speech against it.

Most of the homosexuals believer Christians dislike them because we speak out from a Biblical viewpoint . You would be welcome in my church and would not be made to feel bad about yourself. WE let homosexuals join if they are not practicing homosexuals. That is because letting them join, might appear that we accept that as Biblical.

If you ever consider attending church again, and I would not blame you if you didn't, try a PCS, Presbyterian Church in America church.

 

[omega2xx]

Read the link. There are clear examples in it.

I have quit reading links, Most of the only present one view. If you cut and paste what you want me to consider, I will read them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You attended a church that did not follow the teachings of the Bible.

It certainly followed it more closely than those who excuse various parts of the Bible because they don't align without our far more ethical and moral standards of today.

That is because letting them join, might appear that we accept that as Biblical.

Even you say such things are of the teachings of the Bible.

You would be welcome in my church and would not be made to feel bad about yourself. WE let homosexuals join if they are not practicing homosexuals.

That is where it starts to turn to hate. You are correct in that homosexuality is against the Bible.

Your brush is still too wide. You can't use a personal experience as a typical example.

No, it's not everyone's experience, and there are even LBGT-affirming churches, but there are still many LBGT youth who are tormented by the church, and the Bible does say homosexuals should be put to death.

Being a member of a church and calling our self a Christians does not make us a Christian.

True, but it's no one's place to judge who is and who isn't.

That church seems more like a cult than a Christians church.

No, it just tended to include parts of the Bible that many other churches did not.

If we are to love our enemies, we should also love homosexuals. Real Christians should Never preach or tolerate hate.

It comes off as preaching hate when you tell people their love is evil, their love is sin, and they should not love. It can be viewed as hate when it causes so many to become miserably and suicidal, and with far too many committing suicide.

True Christianity is not a bane. WE speak against it because God does, but we do not advocate violence or derogatory speech against it.

A good number of you want to go so far as to declare it a "right" to discriminate against the LBGT community. You speak against us, you try to tell others how "sinful" we are. That is being a bane to our existence.

If you ever consider attending church again, and I would not blame you if you didn't, try a PCS, Presbyterian Church in America church.

Church is not the place for me. And, do you realize, you are suggesting to me a church that, according to your, preaches the same toxic doctrine that made my teenaged years defined by misery, agony, and longing for death. That is in sharp contract to having shed those chains, and how I am now, being myself, and so much better off that even people online have commented that I'm in a much better mood, more open, more talkative, more relaxed and calm. It's rather a remarkable turnaround. I don't make vows to myself, but, over this, I took an oath to myself that I will let no one take this away from me. Literally, I would rather die than return to a life of having clinically-concerning high rates of depression and anxiety. I won't have it. This makes church out of the question for me, because I have read the entire Bible, and I know what it says about me.

 

[Prestor John]

When we come right down to it, there's nothing to agree or disagree with. It is what it is. I said people don't understand and take a narrow view of things. It's not "your way or no way".

This makes no sense to me.

You reject what I have come to believe, so why can I not reject what you have come to believe?

 

[Jainarayan]

You reject what I have come to believe, so why can I not reject what you have come to believe?

Where did you dig that up from, the county landfill? Rejection was not in the equation; agreeing or disagreeing was. How can you agree or disagree with something if you don't know anything about it? I don't know anything about Siberian Shamanism (if there even is such a thing) so how can I agree or disagree with it? There's a tendency in your arguments to twist words into strawmen.

 

[Prestor John]

It literally is just a room. You can go in there. I know of males that do use that room for relieving themselves. If in a place where that is somehow guarded/watched over, then it poses a problem. In most cases it is not watched over, and so usually not a problem. I think most people on the planet don't really care, but admittedly, we in the West have been conditioned to care who goes where. When I traveled to Africa, a room was seen as sheer luxury. LOL, but true.

Yeah, none of that really changes the purpose of my example though.

Denying someone something does not always have to be on the grounds of worthiness.

It definitely is. The idea of having one room for a type of person and another for another type is discrimination.

If you want to get technical, then yes, but I was using "discrimination" in the negative context, like prejudice, intolerance, bigotry and such.

Even if you can consider it discrimination that does not mean that there is not a justifiable reason for said discrimination.

If you truly think there are absolutes, but also many differences that seek to dictate which way people ought to go, then there is discrimination. To think the discrimination is part of the Father is where we'd have religious debate. The only distinction I'm aware of that the Father makes is that He is Father and We are His Creation, and even then I see Him as perfectly willing to see Us as Co-Creators, realizing that in His Kingdom there is literally nothing that can threaten this. IOW, it is not possible to overthrow God, but to think it possible and to construct a world (really an illusion) where that is constantly attempted to occur, equals a detour into fear. Where fear of own Self (and brothers / sisters) replaces God's Love.

I disagree and if you have children I think you'd disagree as well. Our love for our children in many ways is manifested as fear.

God does not want His children to live outside the bounds He has set up. This is because He does not want us to be harmed. He wants us to be safe and happy.

Therefore, He gave us commandments and made leaders among His more responsible children to hopefully guide those who would normally operate outside those bounds and thus hurt themselves.

 

[omega2xx]

It certainly followed it more closely than those who excuse various parts of the Bible because they don't align without our far more ethical and moral standards of today.

To hate and ridicule others is not in my Bible

Even you say such things are of the teachings of the Bible.

The teachins is that homosexuality is a sin. It also teaches that we are all sinners. As I said the teachings is not to hate and ridicule others.

That is where it starts to turn to hate. You are correct in that homosexuality is against the Bible.

Are you really saying we should hate and ridicule homosexuals.

No, it's not everyone's experience, and there are even LBGT-affirming churches, but there are still many LBGT youth who are tormented by the church, and the Bible does say homosexuals should be put to death.

Then be obidient and start killing them. No more or civil law was mandatory. WE can always show mercy and grace. Jesus did not demand the woman caught in adultery be stoned. Remembr His words---let him who is without sin throw the first stone. Are you qualified to throw the first stone?

True, but it's no one's place to judge who is and who isn't.

Right, but those who claim Christians do these unChristian things are doing just that.

No, it just tended to include parts of the Bible that many other churches did not.

It did not include parts, it omitted some.

It comes off as preaching hate when you tell people their love is evil, their love is sin, and they should not love. It can be viewed as hate when it causes so many to become miserably and suicidal, and with far too many committing suicide.

It is hate when the person is ridiculed.

A good number of you want to go so far as to declare it a "right" to discriminate against the LBGT community. You speak against us, you try to tell others how "sinful" we are. That is being a bane to our existence.

The Bible says homosexual acts are sinful. Why is it wrong for us to say it is?

Church is not the place for me. And, do you realize, you are suggesting to me a church that, according to your, preaches the same toxic doctrine that made my teenaged years defined by misery, agony, and longing for death.

I said just the opposite. I said my church would not ridiculle you.

That is in sharp contract to having shed those chains, and how I am now, being myself, and so much better off that even people online have commented that I'm in a much better mood, more open, more talkative, more relaxed and calm. It's rather a remarkable turnaround. I don't make vows to myself, but, over this, I took an oath to myself that I will let no one take this away from me. Literally, I would rather die than return to a life of having clinically-concerning high rates of depression and anxiety. I won't have it. This makes church out of the question for me, because I have read the entire Bible, and I know what it says about me.

I also said I would not blame you if you did not want to ever attend church again.

 

[Prestor John]

Do you know why it was legal to kill a Mormon as you put it?

The Executive Order.

 

[Acim]

If we are to love our enemies, we should also love homosexuals. Real Christians should Never preach or tolerate hate. True Christianity is not a bane. WE speak against it because God does, but we do not advocate violence or derogatory speech against it.

Where did Jesus speak about homosexuality?
Don't worry, I already anticipate your response to this, but would just say that this isn't actually a Christian thing. At least not for a Gnostic.

 

[Acim]

Yeah, none of that really changes the purpose of my example though.

Denying someone something does not always have to be on the grounds of worthiness.

You're emphasizing worthiness. I'm pretty sure I can still win on that point, but will just ask you go back to discrimination as defined by the dictionary (or as I already providing in this thread). Denying someone anything is based on discrimination.

If you want to get technical, then yes, but I was using "discrimination" in the negative context, like prejudice, intolerance, bigotry and such.

You had me at yes. You are talking about 'discrimination against.' Denying someone something is likely to be discrimination against. As I brought up earlier, why if it's not a big deal that the civil union gets to occur, why not just have that for heterosexual types and the other form of marriage for homosexuals? Methinks, suddenly it would be bigger deal for you / heterosexuals, cause that will suddenly sink in how it is discrimination against. Either way, they're both man made versions of what our Father has already joined long before the physical existed.

Even if you can consider it discrimination that does not mean that there is not a justifiable reason for said discrimination.

From spiritual perspective, I would say it would be unreasonable. From earthly perspective, where morality is clearly (and always) relative, yeah, surely it can be justified. If we can justify murder/killing, after being explicitly told "do not kill," then pretty sure there's not something you can name that cannot be justifiable, and even appear 'reasonable.'

I disagree and if you have children I think you'd disagree as well. Our love for our children in many ways is manifested as fear.

I think you are elevating caution to level of fear in this sort of assertion. In the Kingdom, there is literally nothing that can harm your child, any child. Here in the physical, where things are perceived as separate (namely from God, thus clearly outside of the Kingdom), fear is deemed 'justifiable' and considered in vein of 'wisdom.' It is not, and from spiritual perspective, it is being unreasonable. Fear is the opposite of Love, yet the tricky (and esoterically wise) point to be made is that Love has no opposite, nothing that can truly oppose it. Fear would just have zero reason to exist within the Kingdom. In reality (even our physical reality) it actually has zero reason to exist, but even I realize that takes great courage, and innocence, to fully be aware of this. I think a child is aware of this, until they learn what it means to be an adult.

God does not want His children to live outside the bounds He has set up. This is because He does not want us to be harmed. He wants us to be safe and happy.

Obviously, we'd disagree on this. It is us that have manifested a place where bounds (and separation of matter) exists. Not the Father. God's Word is all about having us become closer to Him/our Divine Self. For the truly devoted, some of what the message may entail is 'don't do this, as it will lead to your experiencing (or perceiving yourself as) hurt, delaying, dying, great anxiety.' I see much of that as highly personal to the one (on earth) that actually received the message, and not the truth for 'all people everywhere.' I realize it could be that way, but also realize it can be the other way. Sometimes to really understand Word, one needs to look for the positive message, rather than only focus on what 'God doesn't want us to do.' Helpful messaging, IMHO, is generally framed as "do only this" where 'this' is something positive to be affirmed in Life. The notion of "don't do this, but instead do this other thing" is not exactly helpful, and is, in and of itself a temptation. Cause surely we as Children are going to at least be wondering about what is wrong with doing the thing we're not supposed to be doing. Many of us might act that out, to test if Life truly is able to go on, or if Love does indeed have an opposite, a bound.

Messages such as:
- Love your neighbor as yourself
or
- Love almighty God with all your heart, mind and spirit

are positive affirmations. To get back to topic of this thread, neither of these messages are promoting anything related to sexuality, though for us, where love between two committed partners may be seen as 'greatest love this world knows,' then it might be seen as exactly what the message is about. So, if then taking the bastardized version of 'love your neighbor as yourself' to mean this applies foremost to my spouse, AND adding in there the confusing message of, 'but make sure your spouse isn't the same gender as you' - that a) is going to greatly detract from the original message and b) is going to act as a form of temptation to see if Love can hold up in relationships of people that are the same gender. This just in... it does!

 

[1robin]

According to you, maybe. Me, I find nothing morally wrong with it.

If you find nothing wrong with 4% of the population creating over 60% of new aids cases in the US, nothing wrong with the fact that homosexual life spans are significantly lower than heterosexual life spans, nothing wrong with the higher rates of sexual assault, nothing wrong with massively higher rates of promiscuity, higher rates of unsafe sex, and higher rates of adultery within the homosexual community, etc...... then pray tell me what it is you do consider wrong? If your moral compass is off that far then there exists no common ground to debate these issues.

 

[1robin]

That's not going to happen. I have no interest in the bible. The only interest I have in the bible is when people try to use it as a club and use it to try to justify discrimination and reject science. Other than that the bible is irrelevent to me.

Your the one who brought up the bible, I am the one making a secular argument. I also did not use the bible as a club or in any other way except to reply to your points where you referenced the bible. So it seems you cannot make a meaningful argument concerning homosexual behavior, you can't put forward any meaningful argument concerning the bible, and you blame me for a subject you brought up. Good job.

 

[columbus]

... then pray tell me what it is you do consider wrong?

Christians like yourself causing psychological damage to the young which results in dysfunctional and self destructive behavior.
Tom

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you find nothing wrong with 4% of the population creating over 60% of new aids cases in the US, nothing wrong with the fact that homosexual life spans are significantly lower than heterosexual life spans, nothing wrong with the higher rates of sexual assault, nothing wrong with massively higher rates of promiscuity, higher rates of unsafe sex, and higher rates of adultery within the homosexual community, etc...... then pray tell me what it is you do consider wrong? If your moral compass is off that far then there exists no common ground to debate these issues.

Um. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with these things. Any straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and so forth have the capability to commit promiscuity, crimes, and abuse. For some reason, I always hear on the news a heterosexual has abused someone. It could be a priest, who are required to be heterosexual to be a priest, to your everyday Jo Smo.

I can go out and make out with a guy now and still be homosexual.

Tell me how sexual orientation=murder?

I'm literally scratching my head now.

Edit: Oh, and what does lower life rates for homosexuals (without statistics?) have to do with higher rates with heterosexuals? How does sexual orientation fluctuate on how long someone lives?

I have Epilepsy, and because I do, they say (literally) my life span is a bit shorter than others. Sexual orientation isn't a health condition. So, what's the connection?

Even IF homosexuality was an action, straight people have a lower lifespan when they commit homosexual acts just as heterosexuals, bisexuals, pansexuals, and asexuals. How does the action affect someone's life span?

 

[columbus]

Tell me how sexual orientation=murder?

@1robin arguments are rather like teaching that homosexuals should be stabbed. Then pointing out how much damage uncontrolled bleeding does to carpets and blaming homosexuality.
Tom

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I have quit reading links, Most of the only present one view. If you cut and paste what you want me to consider, I will read them.

No. I will not encourage your laziness by doing your research for you. That you choose to engage in wilful ignorance speaks volumes.

 

[omega2xx]

Where did Jesus speak about homosexuality?

I don't limit my theology to just what Jesus said. What Paul said is just as important as what Jesus Said.

Don't worry, I already anticipate your response to this, but would just say that this isn't actually a Christian thing.

Don't worry, I never worry about what skeptics say. Is what I said what you expected? i doubt it.

At least not for a Gnostic.

When Gnostic knowleldge become perfect, get back to me.

 

[omega2xx]

No. I will not encourage your laziness by doing your research for you. That you choose to engage in wilful ignorance speaks volumes.

If you are to lazy to cut and paste, that's fine with me. To bad, some of your wilful ignorance might have been cured.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@1robin arguments are rather like teaching that homosexuals should be stabbed. Then pointing out how much damage uncontrolled bleeding does to carpets and blaming homosexuality.
Tom

That is sad.