Homosexuality and Homosexual Marriages: Why do Christians Care?

[Sonofason]

I know the Bible well enough to know that Saul of Tarsus was no Apostle.

But apparently Christians don't have a problem with appearance of bigotry and hypocritical teachings. That's why Mormons both claim that a marriage is between one woman and one man, and also that a polygamous prophet had the True Religion.
Tom

Bravo, you have provided good reason to reject Mormonism.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No I wasn't. I was specifically talking about property transfers. Not rental agreements.
Please do keep up.

<Waits while someone finds their logical armor and reorients themselves on the field. >

Tom

BTW: before you posted your reply (but apparently after you quoted me), I realized that I misread you and edited my post.

In any case, discrimination in housing sales is also illegal in the US:

Fair Housing Act - Wikipedia

 

[columbus]

Bravo, you have provided good reason to reject Mormonism.

Christians are just drenched in hypocrisy. Mormons are not very different from the rest of the Christian community.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Bravo, you have provided good reason to reject Mormonism.

Non-Mormon Christians also have no shortage of polygamous prophets and other men held up as "holy".

 

[columbus]

In any case, discrimination in housing sales is also illegal in the US:

As a gay guy who has both rented and purchased residential real estate in this country, I know the difference between what is legal, sorta legal, not legal but commonly permitted by the legal authorities, legal but unpopular, popular but illegal, etc. Etc.

I don't have much faith in The Law.

That is a big part of the reason I don't see legislation as much help in dealing with real moral issues. It's almost all what some lying politician used to get reelected so s/he could soak the taxpayer gravy train.

Tom

 

[Sonofason]

Christians are just drenched in hypocrisy. Mormons are not very different from the rest of the Christian community.
Tom

Well then we'll have to look at all of these Christian communities and their members, and see wherein the hypocrisy lies. We should understand that without the Bible, there is no Christian community. And so therefore, all legitimate Christian doctrine must agree with the Bible. If by chance some supposed Christian community holds to a doctrine that is contradictory to the Bible, then that Christian community can be discounted as a legitimate Christian Community. If by chance there are members of a Christian community who engage in hypocrisy by advancing doctrines and behaviors contradictory to the Bible, then those members of that Christian community can be discounted as legitimate members of a Christian community.

Followers of Christ, that is "Christians" must follow Christ in order to be Christians. Those who are not following Christ are not Christians.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As a gay guy who has both rented and purchased residential real estate in this country, I know the difference between what is legal, sorta legal, not legal but commonly permitted by the legal authorities, legal but unpopular, popular but illegal, etc. Etc.

So you know you're misrepresenting things?

 

[columbus]

So you know you're misrepresenting things?

What things am I misrepresenting?
I am talking about the reality in the USA. Perhaps you are talking about something else, like Canada.
Tom

 

[Sonofason]

Non-Mormon Christians also have no shortage of polygamous prophets and other men held up as "holy".

Someone correct me if I am wrong. I do not believe that there is a law given to man by God forbidding him to have only one wife. However, it is biblical that God's children are expected to follow the laws of men. And since some Mormons are in disobedience to the laws of this land, those Mormon's who are polygamists are living in disobedience to God. Thus, If some Mormon community should teach that -- if it were legal in the land wherein they reside to have more than one wife, then it would not be a breach of God's law to have more than one wife -- that would be a sound teaching for that Mormon community.

 

[columbus]

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

It doesn't seem to do any good when we do. You ignore anybody who disagrees with your opinions about god and morality and culture.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What things am I misrepresenting?

American law:

In the Sale and Rental of Housing: No one may take any of the following actions based on race, color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status or handicap:

• Refuse to rent or sell housing
• Refuse to negotiate for housing
• Make housing unavailable
• Deny a dwelling
• Set different terms, conditions or privileges for sale or rental of a dwelling
• Provide different housing services or facilities
• Falsely deny that housing is available for inspection, sale, or rental
• For profit, persuade owners to sell or rent (blockbusting) or
• Deny anyone access to or membership in a facility or service (such as a multiple listing service) related to the sale or rental of housing.

online-complaint

I am talking about the reality in the USA. Perhaps you are talking about something else, like Canada.
Tom

Oh, it's illegal in Canada too, but I've been talking about the US.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Someone correct me if I am wrong. I do not believe that there is a law given to man by God forbidding him to have only one wife.

I've never seen anything in the Bible that prohibited polygamy for anyone other than "presbyters".

However, it is biblical that God's children are expected to follow the laws of men.

You mean like the laws that say that homosexuality and same-sex marriage are legal? Those "laws of men"?

 

[columbus]

American law:

Ah....
You think that the law is the reality.

How adorable.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ah....
You think that the law is the reality.

How adorable.
Tom

No, I think you're moving the goalposts.

If your position at the start was "it's illegal, but it's hard to prosecute so lots of people get away with it", I wouldn't have challenged you.

But what you did say was "there is nothing illegal about it", which is very different.

 

[columbus]

No, I think you're moving the goalposts.

If your position at the start was "it's illegal, but it's hard to prosecute so lots of people get away with it", I wouldn't have challenged you.

But what you did say was "there is nothing illegal about it", which is very different.

Maybe our problem is that you see a clear distinction between legal and illegal. I don't.
A law that is not enforced, or even enforceable, is just some scripture. Words people write down, and only refer to when it is convenient.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Maybe our problem is that you see a clear distinction between legal and illegal. I don't.
A law that is not enforced, or even enforceable, is just some scripture. Words people write down, and only refer to when it is convenient.
Tom

Just stop. You got caught misrepresenting the facts; move on.

The problem here is that I actually remember your post that started our tangent and what you were arguing.

I get why someone would want to save face when they're caught being wrong, but at this point, you're just making yourself look ridiculous.

Your original post argued how you think "personal freedom" is wonderful and that an example of how "there's nothing illegal" about racial discrimination when selling your house.

Now, with your revisionist version of "illegal" (i.e. if a law is only sometimes applied, breaking it isn't "illegal"), that original argument becomes something like "it helps personal freedom to have a law against racist discrimination when selling your house that's applied haphazardly."

You've changed your argument from merely incorrect to full-on idiotic, and you're doing an awful job of saving face.

 

[Sonofason]

It doesn't seem to do any good when we do. You ignore anybody who disagrees with your opinions about god and morality and culture.
Tom

Actually, I have quite recently agreed with another member of this forum on this very thread. If I see an opinion that is apparently valid and quite possibly true, I would be incapable of total and complete disagreement. And with regard to me ignoring people who disagree with my opinions about God and morality and culture, even now, I have read your opinions about racial and LGBT discrimination with regard to selling homes, and I have disagreed with you. And here I am, not ignoring you, but simply and kindly disagreeing with you.

 

[Sonofason]

I've never seen anything in the Bible that prohibited polygamy for anyone other than "presbyters".


You mean like the laws that say that homosexuality and same-sex marriage are legal? Those "laws of men"?

Yes of course, but homosexual marriage was not always legal in all states. Human laws are subject to change. They change all the time, and I will of course do what I can do to make sure that the laws that we have on the books are representative of my own personal morals and values.

 

[columbus]

And here I am, not ignoring you, but simply and kindly disagreeing with you.

I actually thought about what I posted and felt a little bad about it. I apologize. You have said things on RF that surprised me, in a good way. You don't ignore me as often as most Christians.

But then you say really normal Christian things like "I would force my religious beliefs on you if I could ".
And it kinda ruins the moment. Once again, a Christian opposes my most basic moral principles. "We are all children of God. So I can't let you live your life. My God tells me to screw with you whenever I can, even when it's preventing you from getting married and living a sexually responsible life."
It's a struggle for me. I have to work to get over the obvious opinion that the Christian god and the Christian people are my enemy. Violently my enemy. Hugely opposed to basic morality and evil minded.
You.
And your god. And everyone who believes in you and your god. I go to the local Catholic church because they obviously don't believe in your god, they believe in Jesus. You don't.
Tom

 

[Sonofason]

Homosexuals can get married in the United States. I can't stop them. But I do believe it should not be permitted, and so I will do what I can do to change the law. If the law isn't changed, there's not much I can do about it, is there.

I actually thought about what I posted and felt a little bad about it. I apologize. You have said things on RF that surprised me, in a good way. You don't ignore me as often as most Christians.

But then you say really normal Christian things like "I would force my religious beliefs on you if I could ".
And it kinda ruins the moment. Once again, a Christian opposes my most basic moral principles. "We are all children of God. So I can't let you live your life. My God tells me to screw with you whenever I can, even when it's preventing you from getting married and living a sexually responsible life."
It's a struggle for me. I have to work to get over the obvious opinion that the Christian god and the Christian people are my enemy. Violently my enemy. Hugely opposed to basic morality and evil minded.
You.
And your god. And everyone who believes in you and your god. I go to the local Catholic church because they obviously don't believe in your god, they believe in Jesus. You don't.
Tom

Look, we all have our own beliefs. Whether they be supported by some religion or by some secular society. You believe that I should have to see something going on in the world around me that I do not wish to be subjected to, that would be you wanting to impose your will upon me. And I would like to disallow you from doing that, which is me imposing my will upon you. The best society is a society where everyone agrees. We're not going to get that any time soon, and so what we have to do is find a way to get along with one another, and the only way we can do that is by doing what we can to impose our own will upon others, and when we fail to get that done, and we will fail to get that done, we must live with others imposing their wills upon us.

Yes, Jesus says we should love one another, and forgive one another. So who is going to be doing this forgiving? Well, for the most part, the people doing the forgiving are the ones who are having their wills imposed upon. This means that for many years, since homosexuality and homosexual marriage was illegal, and your will was suppressed, that you would be responsible for forgiving me for having imposed my will on you. But now, since homosexual marriage is legal, and you have imposed your will upon me, it means that you are the one who now needs forgiveness, and it is my duty to forgive you.

But that doesn't mean that I ought to stop trying to impose my will on you. It just means that I must do it in a loving manner, to the extent that it is possible.