Homosexuality and marriage (again)

[JamBar85]

Taking this discussion back on topic. Blasphemy!

I would disagree with one statement you made IF I am reading it correctly. I too wish that homosexual marriage would be recognized by the States and Federal government however, if any religious institution refuses to participate in marrying homosexual couples then that is fine. Not sure if I am reading the statement I put in bold properly, though.

I'm not sure if you are either tbh. What I meant by that was the fact that a couple don't have to get married in the actual building of the church depending on which one it is (roman catholic, protestant etc.) I meant that like a lot of couples, they can get married on a beach or wherever. I thought a couple could tie the knot in whatever way they want.

I know that might sound a bit short sighted, if thats the right term on the subject, but thats what I thought the whole point of marraige was. A couple commiting themselves to each other in whatever way they want.

Just for the record, I don't believe in God and i'm straight.

 

[gnomon]

I'm not sure if you are either tbh. What I meant by that was the fact that a couple don't have to get married in the actual building of the church depending on which one it is (roman catholic, protestant etc.) I meant that like a lot of couples, they can get married on a beach or wherever. I thought a couple could tie the knot in whatever way they want.

I know that might sound a bit short sighted, if thats the right term on the subject, but thats what I thought the whole point of marraige was. A couple commiting themselves to each other in whatever way they want.

Just for the record, I don't believe in God and i'm straight.

Then I misread you. I agree.

 

[madhatter85]

I accept you at your word but I strongly suspect you are alone in your lack of engagement.
I don't understand this revulsion at human sexuality. If one accepts God created everything one also accepts he created sexuality, in all it's diversity! I think he made a pretty good job of it too.

I am not repulsed at human sexuality, but perversions of it yes i am.

 

[gnomon]

This is one of those moments where you weigh the benefits of displaying religious tolerance or a desire to just....explode.

 

[astarath]

Tolerance is about bending not breaking. I understand the desire homosexuals are having to come into a deeper state of union however for those of us in our respective faiths this is a transgression and sin and is as offensive to us as our judgement of sinful living is to homosexual persons.

 

[McBell]

I am not repulsed at human sexuality, but perversions of it yes i am.

Perversity is in the eyes of the perceiver, not in what is being perceived.

 

[astarath]

That was a mouthful... but I agree that your perception and mine may differ however in a case where one side is demanding understanding I can't understand why the lack a total of understanding of what we seem to understand.

 

[Captain Civic]

This is why there should be a separation between church and state.

I personally take homosexuality as a sin in the same regards as any other, eg. intoxication, adultery, lying, etc. You can't change that. Sit and rant at me saying "omg bigeeet1!" Just as a lot of people say it's right, I say it's wrong. It's my right to hold that view, just as it is yours to hold yours.

Having said that, I don't yell and scream at homosexual people to stop and convert. Their lifestyle choice is (or should be) just as free and equal as my lifestyle choice. They don't yell and scream at me to stop being Christian and become gay.

That's the idea of what the Christian life teaches. Love everyone, and (at least) make the offer of being a Christian also. If other people reject it, that's ok. It's no different than me making the choice to accept it. Don't force your beliefs on other people.

You know why? Well, why don't you ask the garden variety atheist? There are other reasons than this, but the most common I encounter is because it's a demanding, exclusive cult that orders you to follow them or you become their mortal enemies. Great way to share the faith, isn't it?

 

[Autodidact]

In fact animals only do it to forward their dominance over another and nothing to do with sex,it is only some humans that practice same sex sex

No, you're mistaken. Different animals engage in homosexual behavior for variety of reasons, including social bonding. In fact, there are a (very few) species that exhibit homosexual pair bonding.

 

[McBell]

That was a mouthful... but I agree that your perception and mine may differ however in a case where one side is demanding understanding I can't understand why the lack a total of understanding of what we seem to understand.

huh?
WHO is demanding understanding?

Seems to me that same sex couples are merely wanting equal rights.
It is those against same sex marriage who try to pull the "they want our acceptance and understanding" argument.

 

[astarath]

In making a demand for us to alter our beliefs to suit theirs they are asking for some measure of understanding on our part. However those for same sex dont realise that those beliefs are as/if not more important to us than sexual preferance and freedoms. But there is no understanding of that fact.

 

[Autodidact]

I am not repulsed at human sexuality, but perversions of it yes i am.

And by perversion you mean sex that you do not engage in? btw in general I would be too polite to say this, but since you seem to find it acceptable, I'll share my personal view of your sexuality, which is that it is disgusting. Still, to each his own, say I.

 

[Autodidact]

Tolerance is about bending not breaking. I understand the desire homosexuals are having to come into a deeper state of union however for those of us in our respective faiths this is a transgression and sin and is as offensive to us as our judgement of sinful living is to homosexual persons.

Why do you consider lesbianism a sin, since it is not prohibited anywhere in the entire Bible?

 

[Autodidact]

This is why there should be a separation between church and state.

I personally take homosexuality as a sin in the same regards as any other, eg. intoxication, adultery, lying, etc. You can't change that. Sit and rant at me saying "omg bigeeet1!" Just as a lot of people say it's right, I say it's wrong. It's my right to hold that view, just as it is yours to hold yours.

Having said that, I don't yell and scream at homosexual people to stop and convert. Their lifestyle choice is (or should be) just as free and equal as my lifestyle choice. They don't yell and scream at me to stop being Christian and become gay.

That's the idea of what the Christian life teaches. Love everyone, and (at least) make the offer of being a Christian also. If other people reject it, that's ok. It's no different than me making the choice to accept it. Don't force your beliefs on other people.

You know why? Well, why don't you ask the garden variety atheist? There are other reasons than this, but the most common I encounter is because it's a demanding, exclusive cult that orders you to follow them or you become their mortal enemies. Great way to share the faith, isn't it?

You do know that there are thousands of gay Christians, right?

 

[gnomon]

This is why there should be a separation between church and state.

I personally take homosexuality as a sin in the same regards as any other, eg. intoxication, adultery, lying, etc. You can't change that. Sit and rant at me saying "omg bigeeet1!" Just as a lot of people say it's right, I say it's wrong. It's my right to hold that view, just as it is yours to hold yours.

Having said that, I don't yell and scream at homosexual people to stop and convert. Their lifestyle choice is (or should be) just as free and equal as my lifestyle choice. They don't yell and scream at me to stop being Christian and become gay.

That's the idea of what the Christian life teaches. Love everyone, and (at least) make the offer of being a Christian also. If other people reject it, that's ok. It's no different than me making the choice to accept it. Don't force your beliefs on other people.

You know why? Well, why don't you ask the garden variety atheist? There are other reasons than this, but the most common I encounter is because it's a demanding, exclusive cult that orders you to follow them or you become their mortal enemies. Great way to share the faith, isn't it?

I can admire that.

I will ask you this question. Many people hold the view that humans are either male or female. However, we know for a fact that is not true for all humans. Many people undergo gender reassignment shortly after birth. As that individual matures their perception of their gender may be different than that of what was decided for them. Some individuals have been declared one gender at birth, raised according to that gender and at the point of maturity developed sexually as the other gender. There is a spectrum of identity among these individuals that includes transgender and homosexuality. As well as heterosexuality or a third identification.

The issue of gay marriage does indeed include these people. Where do they fit in with the theological view that all humans are born male or female? I'm not saying that is your view. I'm assuming and if I assume wrong but I apologize.

My frustration at this issue being ignored considering its highly relevant value is....exasperating.

I do not see how any discussion of marriage and sexual/gender identity can ignore those individuals who are intersex. Any discussion on this issue which excludes these fellow humans, by either side of the debate, is invalid in my opinion.

 

[Autodidact]

In making a demand for us to alter our beliefs to suit theirs they are asking for some measure of understanding on our part. However those for same sex dont realise that those beliefs are as/if not more important to us than sexual preferance and freedoms. But there is no understanding of that fact.

I'm not asking you to alter your beliefs. I'm just asking you to leave me alone, not to inflict your beliefs on me.

 

[McBell]

In making a demand for us to alter our beliefs to suit theirs they are asking for some measure of understanding on our part.

What?
Since when did any same sex couple make any such statement that you have to accept/understand their beliefs?
They merely want the same rights as opposite sex couples.

Whether you understand/accept them or not is irrelevant.

However those for same sex dont realise that those beliefs are as/if not more important to us than sexual preferance and freedoms. But there is no understanding of that fact.

What does this have to do with the legal contract of marriage?

Seems it is nothing more than an attempt at self martyrdom.

 

[McBell]

This is why there should be a separation between church and state.

I personally take homosexuality as a sin in the same regards as any other, eg. intoxication, adultery, lying, etc. You can't change that. Sit and rant at me saying "omg bigeeet1!" Just as a lot of people say it's right, I say it's wrong. It's my right to hold that view, just as it is yours to hold yours.

Having said that, I don't yell and scream at homosexual people to stop and convert. Their lifestyle choice is (or should be) just as free and equal as my lifestyle choice. They don't yell and scream at me to stop being Christian and become gay.

That's the idea of what the Christian life teaches. Love everyone, and (at least) make the offer of being a Christian also. If other people reject it, that's ok. It's no different than me making the choice to accept it. Don't force your beliefs on other people.

You know why? Well, why don't you ask the garden variety atheist? There are other reasons than this, but the most common I encounter is because it's a demanding, exclusive cult that orders you to follow them or you become their mortal enemies. Great way to share the faith, isn't it?

So now all one needs to figure out is why religions are trying so hard to force their way into the states business.

 

[Captain Civic]

You do know that there are thousands of gay Christians, right?

No, I had no idea. I live under a rock.

I don't know how gay Christians reconcile their beliefs with their sexuality. I personally don't see a compromise, any more than I would see me embracing excessive drinking as a lifestyle choice to live alongside my faith. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying I haven't seen evidence of it. By all means, present some. I'd be happy to consider it.

The issue of gay marriage does indeed include these [intersex] people. Where do they fit in with the theological view that all humans are born male or female? I'm not saying that is your view. I'm assuming and if I assume wrong but I apologize.

Hmmm, that's an interesting question. Just out of curiosity, is it a common occurance?

That is besides the point, though. It wouldn't matter if it had and ever would only happen once or to 1 out of 2 children. It's not something I can say I'm well schooled on. Just from your explanation of;

Many people undergo gender reassignment shortly after birth. As that individual matures their perception of their gender may be different than that of what was decided for them. Some individuals have been declared one gender at birth, raised according to that gender and at the point of maturity developed sexually as the other gender. There is a spectrum of identity among these individuals that includes transgender and homosexuality. As well as heterosexuality or a third identification.

That is a most confusing situation. Being raised as a man, yet, finding out at puberty that you are actually a woman. My best educated answer would be that the person's strongest sexual leanings would be most in line with their birth gender, but again, that's a hairy topic that I have no qualification to tackle.

 

[gnomon]

Hmmm, that's an interesting question. Just out of curiosity, is it a common occurance?

That is besides the point, though. It wouldn't matter if it had and ever would only happen once or to 1 out of 2 children. It's not something I can say I'm well schooled on. Just from your explanation of;

That is a most confusing situation. Being raised as a man, yet, finding out at puberty that you are actually a woman. My best educated answer would be that the person's strongest sexual leanings would be most in line with their birth gender, but again, that's a hairy topic that I have no qualification to tackle.

Thank you for answering the question.

Society currently has a binary view of gender. Estimates on the number of individuals who have ambiguous genitalia, a genetic condition such as Klinefelter's Syndrome or intersex is anywhere from 1 out of every 2,000 to 5,000 births. The range depends upon which conditions are considered to be qualified as intersex.

Some information here,
How common is intersex? | Intersex Society of North America

The ideas of human sexuality being simply a matter of male and female, homosexual or heterosexual, are not as clear as they used to be. Given the estimated range of intersex frequency, and that there are approximately 4 million births per year in the United States, that gives roughly a number of 800 to 2,000 births where the infant is not clearly male or female.