Homosexuality and religious.

[loverofhumanity]

Most rational people want a world with no wars, equality, no poverty, freedom of expression, etc. There is nothing miraculous about that.
Unfortunately, Bahaullah's fantasies will not bring that about.

His teachings have established a world community working unitedly for the betterment of the world. Previously opposed races, religions and nationalities all as one. I don’t see that elsewhere in the world where we see white vs black, Christian vs Muslim and nations going to war with each other. (Myanmar, Syria, Yemen, Ukraine, Russia, China, USA, Taiwan, Israel and Palestinians)

 

[loverofhumanity]

So Bahais can only work for other Bahais? Sounds like a cult.

We are not allowed to solicit money from people for our religion.

 

[leroy]

[

I would appreciate you paraphrasing it if you think you understand what it

Your final comment is difficult to parse. I don't know why you are still calling conscience consciousness.

My apologies for that, in Spanish we have the same word for both conscience and consciousness. (which explains my confusion) and honestly I thought that you where just correcting my spelling last time (but the mistake was mine)

but I´ll use the words properly in the future

--

Conscience is spelled differently than conscious, and the two have very different meanings. Conscience refers to your sense of what is right and wrong, while conscious is the state of being awake, aware, or "in the know.

-----

We do not judge evolution using moral intuitions, and we don't evaluate human morality in terms of it serving the outcome of natural selection applied to genetic variation. I hope that's clear. I would appreciate you paraphrasing it if you think you understand what it says, and I would appreciate you explicitly identifying any parts of it with which you disagree and explain why they can't be correct in your estimation. What I'm hoping to avoid is you asking these same questions again that imply that you didn't understand the answer this time, either. If you do, I will refer you to this post once or twice. After that, I will throw up my hands in despair, tell you that we have reached an insurmountable impasse, and the discussion will end. Please let's not go there. Please either make the effort to understand this or agree that you can't and that we are done.

I hope that's clear. I would appreciate you paraphrasing it if you think you understand what it says,

I hope that's clear. I would appreciate you paraphrasing it if you think you understand what it says

Ok I will paraphrase your whole point, please let me know if I am misrepresenting your view.

1 We evolved though natural selection, (whatever was beneficial for our survival was selected and more likely to become fixed and dominant in a population)

2 This includes some sort of “intuition” for example societies that don’t kill each other are probably less likely to survive that societies that help each other, so some sort of “intuition” or “instinct” that makes us feel bad after killing someone would have been beneficial, and therefore likely to be selected………..(this intuition later evolved in what we call consciousness)

3 timed passes and eventually complex brains evolved by the same mechanism of natural selection, this includes the ability to reason that was also beneficial for our survival.

4 then with the combination of our ability to reason and the intuition mentioned in point 2 (that later became our conscience) we started to determine the morally right and the morally wrong based on the things that are best for our survival, flurishment, happiness., and other stuff

5 then a few thousand years of trial and error, cultural influences and learning, molded the previous concept of morality and evolved in to what we understand today as morality.

If this a fare representation of your view if not please spot my mistakes and correct me.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So clearly prejudiced against gay people then, clearly denying that is now redundant.



All of them obviously, the concept of equality surely can't be lost on Baha'i's? Anything less is clearly prejudice.



So I'm puzzled why you keep chaffing at people pointing out your religious beliefs are prejudiced against gay people, and therefore by definition homophobic?

Imagine someone claiming Bahai's shouldn't be allowed to have sex or marry, because they have a distorted pernicious attitude towards sex and sexual orientation, then denying they prejudiced against Bahai's, and trying to claim they loved and respected them as human beings, and were not prejudiced against them at all.

The Baha’i teachings teach us to treat all with love and kindness and that includes everyone. I can only convey to you what I have seen and experienced in my 45 years as a member of this wonderful Faith. Being a Baha’i is the most wonderful blessing I have been gifted with and I just hope others will wake up from all the brainwashing society has done on them. Things like God doesn’t exist and homosexuality is great.

If we are going to be disparaged for not being fooled by a decadent society steeped in thoroughly rotten morals then so be it. But we don’t compromise on what Baha’u’llah has decreed because we believe it to be the truth and from God.

So if people aren’t happy with what He has determined then don’t join our religion. We are told to treat all people with love and kindness and that’s how I find most Baha’is to be.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What do you mean by "anti-Bahai"?

He’s a good person.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's clearly your problem not gay people's. plenty of children grow up with gay parents, and are the better for it. Children are not born with preconceived prejudices like homophobia, they're far more accepting that many adults. My step son separated from his first wife, who is now married to a woman she loves, the children love them all, and are thriving well adjusted children growing up in a loving home.

That’s great if it worked for you. In my case it didn’t.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Why did god create those defects in the first place?

You don’t believe in God so now you’re blaming Him? You can’t have it both ways. Any defects were not God created in my understanding.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So how do you reconcile your claims about universal tolerance, equality, peace, etc with all the violent intolerance and discrimination in the Quran and sunnah?
Let me guess, you just deny or ignore all the unpleasant stuff?

The Quran teaches to return good for evil and to be peaceful with all.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So "NO" and "NO".
I can understand why you are reluctant to express your position so clearly though.

It’s not just a yes/no question. Baha’u’llah tells us a heterosexual marriage is important for procreation. He usually gives reasons why with many of His laws.

 

[F1fan]

That would depend upon the Law they broke.

I do.

So if Bahais say you broke a Bahai law, and it was for something you thought was OK, how do you get punished?

And give us an examle of a law in Bahai that you are supposed to follow. Apart from gay sex I'm not aware of anyone mentioning any laws, nor the punishments.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The issue is natural, congenital conditions that occur randomly - are cause by god, according to religious ideology. Of course, you could try the "only good things are from god, all the bad is from man" approach.

Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend?

Bahá’u’lláh,

 

[loverofhumanity]

So god is wrong to condemn them?

God condemns the act not the people. If you read His Words you will know when He condemns someone. He has condemned Kings and religious leaders for killing innocent people but as to behaviour He condemns the acts.

That’s why Baha’is can be temporarily expelled if they discriminate against anyone. So if I continually abused a homosexual I would firstly be told a couple of times that it’s wrong and if I persisted I would be disciplined and banned from functions could be for years.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

God condemns the act not the people. If you read His Words you will know when He condemns someone. He has condemned Kings and religious leaders for killing innocent people but as to behaviour He condemns the acts.

That’s why Baha’is can be temporarily expelled if they discriminate against anyone. So if I continually abused a homosexual I would firstly be told a couple of times that it’s wrong and if I persisted I would be disciplined and banned from functions could be for years.

No, She doesn't, because your God is not mine.
So stop claiming your God is God.

 

[F1fan]

TBF, the texts only say to purge the world of the evil passion of homosexuality. If all homosexuals stop being homosexual, no purge is necessary.

I have to say that given what we see with religious and political ideologies that attain total power in a nation that they tend to become extreme in how they treat the outcasts. This is expecially true with more authoritartain leaders which is growing in the world these days, with putin, Egodan, Trump, and with Meloni. We can't trust these kinds of leaders. And with the intolerance we see with our good dfriends here on RF how far are they to going along with the leadership rounding up gays, and shipping them off somewhere and not heard from again? The "as long as it's not me" attitude makes even decent people look the other way to crimes against humanity.

Our Bahai frineds accept everything their prophet says, and that tells us they will follow any authority that claims to act on behalf of God. That is dangerous. Do the believers see it as adangerous, or even see their own guilibility as a threat to others? Of course not. Their religious identity traps them from making a moral stand. Even in these discussions the Bahai will not condemn their prophet for making an immoral statement. They refuse. And they follow this man.

 

[Vinayaka]

That’s why Baha’is can be temporarily expelled if they discriminate against anyone. So if I continually abused a homosexual I would firstly be told a couple of times that it’s wrong and if I persisted I would be disciplined and banned from functions could be for years.

By that logic, the entire Baha'i populace should be temporarily expelled because they discriminate against gays.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If science discovered that homosexuality was actually caused by a genetic defect, then I would accept the findings if the evidence was sound.
However, it would not change my attitude towards homosexuality. I would still support the the same rights and protections for gay people as for straight people. And I would still condemn homophobia.

Down's syndrome is a genetic disorder. You can work the rest out yourself

If evidence shows that Bahaism is made up, would you accept it, or would you still believe?

No matter what science discovers my attitude is always that they are equal fellow human beings. One of the main reasons I became a Baha’i was that I believed all humanity are one family and need to accept each other regardless of race, religion, nationality or lifestyle differences. I will always believe in the goodness of people.

 

[F1fan]

God condemns the act not the people.

Where? None of you have been able to demonstrate God actually condemns this. All you have is a guy who claims he speaks for an absent God.

Is it possible you got duped by your prophet?

If you read His Words you will know when He condemns someone. He has condemned Kings and religious leaders for killing innocent people but as to behaviour He condemns the acts.

But God isn't writing, it's your prophet. Are you cofusing your mortal prophet with a god?

That’s why Baha’is can be temporarily expelled if they discriminate against anyone.

Should you be expelled? You just repeating what your prophet believes is a form of discrimination. Why? Because no matter what your mortal prophet believes and claims and writes YOU have moral autonomy. You can just keep this horrible and immoral view to yourself, and not even discuss it. The Bahai sound disgusting to atheists because you repeat and are obliged to an immoral view. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You can repeat the prohibition, but then insist you aren't prejudiced. Yet you won't admit that your prophet was wrong and immoral to say it in the first place. That is Bahai valuing their beliefs, their dogma, their prophet over the moral obligation you owe all human beings including gays.

You guys are trapped. He claims to speak for God and you believe him. You have no freedom to denounce the bigotry of this one issue. You can keev the rest, just admit your prophet was wrong about some things that are immoral. That would help your image greatly. What are you afraid of?

So if I continually abused a homosexual I would firstly be told a couple of times that it’s wrong and if I persisted I would be disciplined and banned from functions could be for years.

Not if other Bahai abused gays too. How hard would it be for you to join up with a select group of Bahai who abuse gays, and you guys decide you are the militatnt arm of Bahai, and are authorized to abuse those who do wrong according to your prophet? THIS is the problem with religions that have prohibitions on certain things, they get aggressive and violent if there is no secular laws keeping them in control. Theocracies have a way of bringing out the worst in people.

 

[ppp]

All people have been given the capacity to recognise a Manifestation of God when He appears.

I didn't ask you that. I as is there is an actual possibility that you are wrong about the infallibility of Baha’u’llah? Can you be wrong?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I have to say that given what we see with religious and political ideologies that attain total power in a nation that they tend to become extreme in how they treat the outcasts. This is expecially true with more authoritartain leaders which is growing in the world these days, with putin, Egodan, Trump, and with Meloni. We can't trust these kinds of leaders. And with the intolerance we see with our good dfriends here on RF how far are they to going along with the leadership rounding up gays, and shipping them off somewhere and not heard from again? The "as long as it's not me" attitude makes even decent people look the other way to crimes against humanity.

Our Bahai frineds accept everything their prophet says, and that tells us they will follow any authority that claims to act on behalf of God. That is dangerous. Do the believers see it as adangerous, or even see their own guilibility as a threat to others? Of course not. Their religious identity traps them from making a moral stand. Even in these discussions the Bahai will not condemn their prophet for making an immoral statement. They refuse. And they follow this man.

I would never ever think about condemning any Prophet or Buddha or Muhammad, Christ etc.
I don’t know if you believe in Buddha but Baha’is believe Baha’u’llah is Maitreya, the fifth Buddha foretold by Gautama to Ananda before He passed away. As far as I’m concerned Buddha or any of the Masters are Enlightened Ones and tell us things we need to know even if we don’t like it. They do so out of love and compassion for all beings. It’s not dangerous to follow Buddha or any of the Great Educators. . They all call us to be noble and humble and to live virtuous and holy lives.

 

[Vinayaka]

No matter what science discovers my attitude is always that they are equal fellow human beings. One of the main reasons I became a Baha’i was that I believed all humanity are one family and need to accept each other regardless of race, religion, nationality or lifestyle differences. I will always believe in the goodness of people.

If you ACTUALLY believed that you would condemn the homophobia and move on. But you don't, so you don't. We get it.