Homosexuality and religious.

[Dawnofhope]

Yes it's the fault of the persecuted minority for not accepting the prejudiced bigotry of religions, talk about missing the point. Like saying it's not the KKK's fault they don't allow black people to join.

If you want to compare the Baha'i Faith to the KKK, an organization that persecutes racial minorities, go ahead. Its pretty clear you have an aversion to the Baha'i Faith so that post just makes it crystal clear.

The Baha'i Faith fully embraces having LGBQT in our communities. Enrolment is another issue and being in an openly gay relationship would be a barrier. Big difference from the KKK.

 

[KWED]

What is the unishment to Bahai folks who ignore the laws?

Bahai's who are "flagrantly homosexual" can be disenfranchised.
People guilty of arson can be burned alive.
So not just homophobia and sexual discrimination (woman are prohibited from sitting on Bahism's ruling council), but also barbaric punishments.
The more I learn about Bahism, the less it corresponds to the 'smiling hippy' persona they like to portray.

 

[KWED]

The concept is easy to see from what Baha'u'llah gave us as well, this says it clear and unambiguous.

THE All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.
We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.
Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live..."

Regards Tony

As usual, your scriptural platitudes d not address my points.

So, are you saying that there are no Bahai laws that you disagree with, or that even if there are, you will quietly follow them and not criticise or protest?

 

[KWED]

Actually, it would be much easier on Bahais(and other religions) if their writings were not believed to be inerrant. Then they could pick the parts that they believed in.

It's what many Christians have been doing for a while.

 

[Vinayaka]

Early on in my conversations with Bahais, the claim that they'd "thoroughly investigated through independent sources" Bahaullah's claims, etc came up a few times. On asking for the sources they used, they were all articles and essays by Bahais or official Bahai resources.

That was my experience as well. The ex-Bahai's and non Baha'i religious scholars had great information I thought.

 

[KWED]

Everyone is welcome to be part of the Baha'i community whatever their sexual orientation. You don't even need ro be a Baha'i.

If someone wants to become an enrolled member of the Baha'i Faith there are qualifications to become a member and expectations.

If you are a gay couple and want to be part of the Baha'i community, that is great. However if you want to become a Baha'i and enrolled member of the faith community, there will be barriers.

Understandably those who identify as gay want to be in an openly gay relationship AND be an enrolled member of the Baha'i community with full administrative rights. When obstacles arise they become hurt. They complain their rights are being violated and accuse the Baha'is of being unloving.

If an organisation refuses to admit people because they are gay, they are breaking discrimination law.

 

[KWED]

Sounds equally scary to me,

Indeed. Because it is essentially the same thing. But it avoids all the "But the texts don't say that!!!" disingenuousness.

 

[Vinayaka]

I linked the story of the guy in your video in an earlier post. I too wanted to have his voice heard as part of the discussion. There are of course many LGBT in the Baha'i community. I want to ensure they loved and valued as members of our community as with everyone else.



My priority is to create community's that are loving and accepting of LGBT. The first step is modeling the change I wish to see in my community.

Obviously, I'm a Baha'i and there are limits and boundaries as you would have being a Hindu. You would never accept me as a Baha'i to be an accepted member of your Hindu community based on my Baha'i beliefs in Krishna. I do not ask you to change your beliefs and views but there should be reciprocity. You should not expect me to push against laws I consider from God.

No I don't expect that. You believe what you believe. I'm more talking to potential converts, especially gay folk, as they might get into similar messes that previous people have had, as witnessed in the videos and letters. If you can prevent pain, do it. In the same vein, I strongly advise anybody looking at Hinduism who can't shake their Abrahamic subconscious to stay where they are. We're not promoting confusion.

 

[Vinayaka]

Not "some day". Today!

"To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help of doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap."

Not only homophobic, but illegal in some countries!

Yes, you're right.

 

[KWED]

There is ample objective evidence that children raised by loving any parents thrive at least as much as those of heterosexual parents, indeed the evidence demonstrates that gay couples generally make excellent parents, but then why one earth wouldn't they, Only homophobes who lie that being gay is harmful or damaging would not want children to see the truth, as they'd grow up without such prejudice, and be accepting of gay people, which is not what many religions want of course. the same way creationist are enraged at only the scientific fact of species evolution being taught children.

With the ever increasing number of gay couple families, children will naturally learn the reality and so when they experience gay-couple homophobia (possibly at home), they will think "But my mate's parents are gay, and they are cool as ****".

 

[KWED]

In this day, when information is freely available, I find it bizarre that someone who is openly gay and in a committed gay relationship would join a religion that has laws that prohibit homosexual behavior and complain about the terms and conditions their faith requires. Its like going to medical school, rejecting Western medicine and insisting on the right to be a practitioner of alternative medicine instead.

Many converts to religions are lured in by false promises and sugar-coated cherry picking. They may not be aware of the problems until its too late. After all, there are Bahais on here who claim to have done thorough, independent investigation before joining, and even some of them weren't aware of the homophobic language in Bahai texts.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So which part is wrong, that god condemns homosexuality, or that you should treat homosexuals with respect?

God does what He pleases and I believe that whatever He ordains is best for humanity. Homosexuals are people like you and I and know many and they are my friends.

 

[KWED]

During the time frames when most religious works were written, humans did not have modern science or modern medicine. Some combinations of human sexuality were observed to be more unsanitary and disease prone. If there had been an AIDs pandemic 2000 year ago, there would be mass death and no way to stop it. The people of the time would observe these things, correlate behavior, and then make some more taboo and others behavior more acceptable, based on the observed health and/or attrition.

Complete nonsense. Homosexuality was pretty much universally accepted in cultures around the world until the Abrahamic religions started gaining power and control.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Indeed. But I'm not surprised. How's Tronna treating you? We have to get back there ... one of these years.

Tronna's always great. I love this city: so multicultural, so varied, so much music, opera, theatre, sports, neighbourhoods, languages.

It's my second favourite place in the world -- I'd love to live in London, England, but can't afford to, so Toronto's where I'll finish out my time.

 

[KWED]

If you want to compare the Baha'i Faith to the KKK, an organization that persecutes racial minorities, go ahead.

They are both organisations that discriminate against people on the basis of their innate characteristics. They both exhibit irrational prejudice. The analogy doesn't seem that inappropriate.

Its pretty clear you have an aversion to the Baha'i Faith so that post just makes it crystal clear.

It's pretty clear that the Bahai faith has an aversions to homosexuality.

The Baha'i Faith fully embraces having LGBQT in our communities. Enrolment is another issue and being in an openly gay relationship would be a barrier. Big difference from the KKK.

The KKK fully accepts black people in their communities. Membership is another issue. Being black would be a barrier.

 

[KWED]

God does what He pleases and I believe that whatever He ordains is best for humanity. Homosexuals are people like you and I and know many and they are my friends.

So god is wrong to condemn them?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Before a person becomes a Baha'i, they are to investigate on their own, preferably by using mostly pro-Baha'i sources. That way, it's more likely they will come to see that the Baha'i Faith is the absolute truth. So, they join. Once they're in, then they are to do and believe whatever the Baha'i writings says for them to do and believe. And, apparently, listening to ex-Baha'is is not something they should do. And I can see that. That way the Faith continues to look all rosy. Why would they want to hear all the negative stuff?

You can never, ever learn "the truth" by looking only at the stuff that supports one view or another, and eschewing the rest. Your whole post is essentially what "indoctrination" means.

 

[KWED]

Tronna's always great. I love this city: so multicultural, so varied, so much music, opera, theatre, sports, neighbourhoods, languages.

It's my second favourite place in the world -- I'd love to live in London, England, but can't afford to, so Toronto's where I'll finish out my time.

Spent a few weeks there some years back. One of my favourite cities. Lived in London for several years. It's one of the contenders for the top spot. Paris is awesome too, but you need a bit French to get the best out of it. Ooh, but what about Barcelona! That has to slot in there somewhere near the top.
Gah, decisions!

 

[loverofhumanity]

You are claiming that your opinion about god and Bahaullah is 100% infallible.

God has endowed everyone with the capacity to know Him.


“Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He,
through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to
confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love
Him—a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the
primary purpose underlying the whole of creation.”


Bahá’u’lláh

 

[loverofhumanity]

The obvious problem here is if you cannot possibly grasp it, what convinced you it is true?

Clearly not true. Even on this little backwater of the internet, opposition to Bahaism is growing.
A year ago I knew almost nothing about Bahaism. Now I have read a fair bit about Bahaullah and his writings, it is clearly delusional nonsense.

As has been shown with the backstory of most the Bahais on here, there seems to be a requirement for some kind of personal trauma, psychological issues, a desperate need for "meaning", etc. Happy, comfortable, well-adjusted, rational people are simply not fooled by it.

As I stated in a previous post, we all have been given the capacity to recognise God and His Messengers.