Homosexuality and religious.

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
1. Do you believe homosexuality is a natural healthy and harmless variation of adult sexual desire?
2. Do you believe gay people should have the same rights as straight people?

That sums up the context and cuts through any ambiguity.

1. I believe the only healthy sexual relationship is between a man and a woman within marriage

So clearly prejudiced against gay people then, clearly denying that is now redundant.

2. Which rights? Sexual rights?

All of them obviously, the concept of equality surely can't be lost on Baha'i's? Anything less is clearly prejudice.

Outside the Baha’i Community I believe the only sexual rights which are legitimate are sexual relations between a man and a woman within marriage. The same within the Baha’i Community.

So I'm puzzled why you keep chaffing at people pointing out your religious beliefs are prejudiced against gay people, and therefore by definition homophobic?

Imagine someone claiming Bahai's shouldn't be allowed to have sex or marry, because they have a distorted pernicious attitude towards sex and sexual orientation, then denying they prejudiced against Bahai's, and trying to claim they loved and respected them as human beings, and were not prejudiced against them at all.

 

[KWED]

Yes Baha’u’llah appeared in human form to be able to communicate God’s guidance to us.

So he claimed. But nothing about what he wrote supports that claim.

anything God reveals through His Messengers may be as of yet unproven by us humans but is regardless, true I believe.

This is just the "argument from ignorance" fallacy.

 

[KWED]

You are not anti Baha’i you just don’t agree with some of our beliefs. That doesn’t make you anti. I consider you a friend and I’m grateful for many things I learned from you.

What do you mean by "anti-Bahai"?

 

[KWED]

Uh. Is there a word for 'independent investigation' that means only Baha'i approved resources can be used? I'll have to coin one. Bahainvestigation?

Early on in my conversations with Bahais, the claim that they'd "thoroughly investigated through independent sources" Bahaullah's claims, etc came up a few times. On asking for the sources they used, they were all articles and essays by Bahais or official Bahai resources.

 

[Sheldon]

So true. The gift of science has told us that homosexuality is a normal thing that happens to a certain percentage of people, just as green eyes, or red hair are. But I suppose you think that some day science will be able to cure the 'defect' of homosexuality.

Yes that was my inference as well. this prejudice stems from the pernicious religious belief that being gay is a defect or even a choice that can be reversed. Rather then accepting the truth that being gay is as much a part of who a person is, as being straight is. The defect is in religions, and their desire to cling doggedly to pernicious doctrine and dogma.

 

[Sheldon]

We made thalimide which created severe birth defects. We do many things like destroy the environment which adversely affects our health. God is not to blame.

It’s us humans that cause these problems not God.

Thalidomide: a byword for tragedy – O&G Magazine

You believe your deity could have stopped any of it though, yes? This would mean it lets children get raped, and sits idly by doing nothing, then says it will punish the rapist later. We would label a human who did this an immoral monster, odd how mere evolved human morals are superior to the concept of a deity many people hold, so they have to blindly deny such logical inferences.

 

[KWED]

So children born with defects and the genes that cause cancers is in their best interest?

Only the good stuff is caused by god. The bad stuff is our own fault. Duh!

(I am still waiting to see a religious footballer shake his fist at the heavens and curse god when he misses a sitter)

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yeah, if they did it in secret, who's going to know? But gays don't want to keep what they do and what they are a secret. So, is what they do really as immoral and evil as the Baha'i writings say? If so, why didn't God keep having them killed? If what they do is so wrong, why accept them at all? Why not tell them they aren't welcome in God's religion?

But you do welcome them. So, why not welcome them all the way in? But you can't, because you do believe their lifestyle is immoral and wrong. And to be a Baha'i, they can't continue living like that.

Everyone is welcome to be part of the Baha'i community whatever their sexual orientation. You don't even need ro be a Baha'i.

If someone wants to become an enrolled member of the Baha'i Faith there are qualifications to become a member and expectations.

If you are a gay couple and want to be part of the Baha'i community, that is great. However if you want to become a Baha'i and enrolled member of the faith community, there will be barriers.

Understandably those who identify as gay want to be in an openly gay relationship AND be an enrolled member of the Baha'i community with full administrative rights. When obstacles arise they become hurt. They complain their rights are being violated and accuse the Baha'is of being unloving.

 

[KWED]

Just out of interest. Have you got all the facts correct about this? I’ve read similar reports but the letter from the Baha’i institution was very reasonable and fair.

it’s unfair to us Baha’is to slander us publicly without presenting the full story. I just think the full facts should be presented here. I have noticed a lot of ‘editing’ of Baha’i Writings, joining separate letters together misrepresenting what was really stated and way out of context.

Please, if you consider yourselves to be upright and just then let’s present the complete context.

So are you claiming that saying "Bahai texts call homosexuality an evil passion to be purged from the world, immoral, a shameful aberration, a handicap, affliction, against nature", is misrepresenting what Bahaism says about homosexuality?

 

[Sheldon]

Clearly there is and will be a dividing point. As to beliefs. And actions. I do not take any action to hurt a person practicing homosexuality, it's not my job. However, it's not something I approve of because the Bible says it's not a godly practice.

So you're prejudiced against them, and happy to say so, which is damaging and pernicious as we know, Now what word describes a prejudice against gay people? it's homophobia in case I was being too subtle there, that there are differing levels of homophobic prejudice is not in dispute.

 

[KWED]

Or even Islam if it brings world peace. Will you become Muslim if all other peolpe agree to adopt Islam?

The Quran does say that everyone should submit to Islam, and then there would be no more fighting.
And Bahais consider the Quran the be the genuine word of god.

 

[Sheldon]

If you are a gay couple and want to be part of the Baha'i community, that is great. However if you want to become a Baha'i and enrolled member of the faith community, there will be barriers.

So the religion is openly prejudiced against gay people then.

Understandably those who identify as gay want to be in an openly gay relationship AND be an enrolled member of the Baha'i community with full administrative rights. When obstacles arise they become hurt. They complain their rights are being violated and accuse the Baha'is of being unloving.

They'd be right of course, you can't claim to be loving of people and respective of their rights, then simultaneously deny their rights, whatever the reason it is homophobic prejudice.

 

[Sheldon]

So are you claiming that saying "Bahai texts call homosexuality an evil passion to be purged from the world, immoral, a shameful aberration, a handicap, affliction, against nature", is misrepresenting what Bahaism says about homosexuality?

We have at least one Bahai who has said most of this on here, it was TB I believe.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If you're so into fertility, maybe you should be worshipping Isis. I mean, that was one of her responsibilities.

Yes. I'm right into fertility. Having sex and babies is right up my alley. Thank you for the advice to worship ISIS, the god of fertliry.

 

[Sheldon]

TBF, the texts only say to purge the world of the evil passion of homosexuality. If all homosexuals stop being homosexual, no purge is necessary.

Sounds equally scary to me, being gay isn't remotely a choice people make after all. Though even were this the case I wouldn't have a problem with it, since it harms no one. Unlike homophobic bigotry and prejudice of course, which we know does harm people. I guess as an atheist I just care more about avoiding for preventing suffering than many theists do.

 

[Sheldon]

The concept is easy to see from what Baha'u'llah gave us as well, this says it clear and unambiguous.

THE All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.
We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.
Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live..."

Regards Tony

I canteth readeth that, as it hurteth my eyes. It's a platitude overload. I once tried the book of Mormon, chloroform in print. If it were read aloud in the open air birds would fall senseless from the sky.

 

[Sheldon]

loverofhumanity said: ↑
I think you missed the point. I needed the loving support of both sexes not just my mother.

There is ample objective evidence that children raised by loving any parents thrive at least as much as those of heterosexual parents, indeed the evidence demonstrates that gay couples generally make excellent parents, but then why one earth wouldn't they, Only homophobes who lie that being gay is harmful or damaging would not want children to see the truth, as they'd grow up without such prejudice, and be accepting of gay people, which is not what many religions want of course. the same way creationist are enraged at only the scientific fact of species evolution being taught children.

 

[Sheldon]

A homosexual marriage cannot provide both male and female care, only the qualities of one sex which wasn’t enough for me.

That's clearly your problem not gay people's. plenty of children grow up with gay parents, and are the better for it. Children are not born with preconceived prejudices like homophobia, they're far more accepting that many adults. My step son separated from his first wife, who is now married to a woman she loves, the children love them all, and are thriving well adjusted children growing up in a loving home.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Because they embraced it without first finding out what it teaches as you did?

In this day, when information is freely available, I find it bizarre that someone who is openly gay and in a committed gay relationship would join a religion that has laws that prohibit homosexual behavior and complain about the terms and conditions their faith requires. Its like going to medical school, rejecting Western medicine and insisting on the right to be a practitioner of alternative medicine instead.

 

[Sheldon]

That is absolutely correct. That is why the disease incidence is higher among men.
Gay men are getting more sex and more diseases. Nothing comes without a cost.

A condom would reverse that trend, so the cost might be easily eradicated with timely sex education, including the many variations of sex that both gay and straight couples can enjoy. Diseases are sadly a natural result of evolution, as all life has evolved in unison competing for survival.

Were it of course designed deliberately, by a deity for example, that would make that deity a barbarically cruel monster.