Homosexuality and religious.

[KWED]

Lets not forget you have claimed to need a valid reason not to purge gay people?

TBF, the texts only say to purge the world of the evil passion of homosexuality. If all homosexuals stop being homosexual, no purge is necessary.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The third gender in India.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not so. There are government laws that I acknowledge as flawed or unreasonable or unjust, but I still follow them because I don't want to incur the penalty for not doing so.
However, I will speak out against them or campaign to have them changed. I do not say "they must be reasonable and just because they are laws and the government must know what it's doing".
A pretty simple concept.

The concept is easy to see from what Baha'u'llah gave us as well, this says it clear and unambiguous.

THE All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.
We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.
Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live..."

Regards Tony

 

[KWED]

God is God and He judges how He pleases.

You could say that about any authoritarian dictator with absolute power. Not sure what your point is though.

I have absolute trust and complete certainty that whatever He decrees is right, true and in our best interests. So we agree to disagree.

So you blindly follow whatever you believe god said - or rather, whatever Bahaullah said, as there is no evidence that he actually communicated with a god that has not been shown to exist.

So you are hedging your bets on:
1. A god exists
2. Bahaullah actually communicated with him
3. Whatever god said is worth listening to.

And we have seen that Bahais fall down at every one of those points.

 

[KWED]

Not really. The Baha’i teachings are more about promoting marriage and family life.

Bahá'í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. This Bahá'í Law restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.

So which part is wrong, that god condemns homosexuality, or that you should treat homosexuals with respect?

 

[KWED]

No. I refer to God not myself. So if you do not accept there is a God then you must be referring to your own infallibility then? Because I personally can’t know something is 100% true except through God. But how do you know you are right or wrong. What is your source of certainty that you are right if you only follow fallible human judgement?

You are claiming that your opinion about god and Bahaullah is 100% infallible.

 

[KWED]

I think you missed the point. I needed the loving support of both sexes not just my mother.

No. You needed a stable and loving family life. That could come from single, or homosexual parents. As is shown by all the loving, caring, stable single parent and gay couple parent families.

A homosexual marriage cannot provide both male and female care,

It doesn't need to.

only the qualities of one sex which wasn’t enough for me.

Did your mother subsequently have a stable, loving lesbian relationship after your father left? If not, you cannot claim that such a family wouldn't have benefitted you. And even then, yours is merely one case. There are many, many more that show the opposite so it is clearly about the individual, not the innate sexuality.

"My father abandoned us and I struggled to cope with it, therefore homosexuality is wrong" is possibly the worst argument on the issue I have heard.

 

[KWED]

I have seen no Baha'i undertaking in that.

Yes, we get it. Many Bahais see nothing wrong in calling homosexuality an evil passion to be purged from the world, immoral, against nature, a handicap, an affliction, shameful aberration. Some even support those sentiments.
But in the civilised world, that is defined by many as "hate speech". Your mere denials do not change that.
If a person clearly exhibits behaviour X, merely saying "I do not do X" is meaningless.

 

[KWED]

Take a look...then think about ...then ask yourself

Good luck with that!

 

[KWED]

From the very first time I heard about Baha’u’llah as an atheist and dismissed it as nonsense and rubbish until I realised this is something way too big for humanity to possibly grasp right now,

The obvious problem here is if you cannot possibly grasp it, what convinced you it is true?

The staunchest enemies and opponents of this Cause have been subdued by the power and beauty of Baha’u’llah even though at the outset they opposed it vehemently.

Clearly not true. Even on this little backwater of the internet, opposition to Bahaism is growing.
A year ago I knew almost nothing about Bahaism. Now I have read a fair bit about Bahaullah and his writings, it is clearly delusional nonsense.

This Faith is irresistible. The only chance you have of not falling in love with a Cause such as this would be to ignore it completely and never breathe a word about it nor mention it on this forum. Once you start opposing and talking about Baha’u’llah you increase the risk of yourself being drawn to this Faith.

As has been shown with the backstory of most the Bahais on here, there seems to be a requirement for some kind of personal trauma, psychological issues, a desperate need for "meaning", etc. Happy, comfortable, well-adjusted, rational people are simply not fooled by it.

 

[KWED]

I think it very reasonable and rational that Baha’u’llah teaches the unity of mankind and peace between races, religions and nations in an age where leaders like Putin are threatening world war 3. Not to mention despotism in Syria, Iran, Yemen and Myanmar.

So we humans have created a really wonderful world haven’t we? It’s time we tried Baha’u’llah’s teachings and if they don’t work we can always have another world war.

Most rational people want a world with no wars, equality, no poverty, freedom of expression, etc. There is nothing miraculous about that.
Unfortunately, Bahaullah's fantasies will not bring that about.

 

[KWED]

I would offer that is the case.

So you accept that homosexuality is "moral" because there is nothing that shows that it is immoral?
(Note: the assertions in Bahai texts are simply that. Assertion. They provide no rational argument for why it is immoral)

It is all relative to ones chosen frame of reference.

You think being gay is "a chosen frame of reference?

So some would see they are moral for embracing same sex marriage etc. A Baha'i does not have predudices in this regard.

Do you consider same-sex marriage to be moral?

Yet in our chosen frame of reference, it is against Baha'i Law.

So some Bahais might consider Bahai law to be wrong?

Abdul'baha was the example of knowing how to respond to such situations and mostly would not discuss such subjects when he knew the frame of reference of the person being addressed, was not compatible.

IOW, he would not discuss Bahai issues with people who disagreed with them.
Echo chamber much?

 

[KWED]

I do not expect many will look beyond the current trends in sexual orientation

You think homosexuality is a "current trend"?
Oh dear god! It is as old as recorded history.
And do you think homosexuality in other species is "a current trend"?

There will be much more scientific research in the future.

And you are hoping that will turn up something negative about homosexuality, because this far, science shows it is just fine.

This will not change the Baha'i Law.

Which do you think is better for society?
A) Laws that can change according to new evidence and argument.
B) Laws that can never change, despite new evidence and argument.

Simple A or B answer. No platitudes required.

 

[KWED]

Baha’is use all their own resources. We cannot take money from non members and contributions are all voluntary and secret, no collection plates here.

So Bahais can only work for other Bahais? Sounds like a cult.

 

[Sheldon]

By spiritual values it’s referring to virtues such as love, compassion, justice, forgiveness etc

No it isn't, they already have commonly understood meanings, adding the woo woo of spiritualism is redundant and therefore meaningless. Also physical love isn't of course mutually exclusive with love, compassion, justice or forgiveness, so a double fail.

 

[KWED]

With no God, there is no Law.

Well, there is, but it is law based on reason and evidence rather than ancient superstition and delusion.

 

[Sheldon]

Which do you think is better for society?
A) Laws that can change according to new evidence and argument.
B) Laws that can never change, despite new evidence and argument.

Simple A or B answer. No platitudes required.

Good one, made me laugh that did, no platitudes required indeed. They should leap on that one, as an example of an atheist indulging wishful thinking.

 

[KWED]

It is becoming apparent that large part of RF is not into Faith.

A place a person of Faith, should most likely avoid and leave them unto themselves.

Such is my current thoughts.

Regards Tony

Indeed. "O ye of faith! Exposeth yourselves not unto that which mayst maketh thine mind thinketh about stuff which thou mustest not thinketh about".

 

[KWED]

There is a sense in which the two statements are analogous.
In A's opinion, depriving people of sex is not wrong.
In B's opinion, torturing babies is not wrong.

Of course torturing babies is not like depriving people of sex. Only a very shallow thinker would think that this is any kind of analogy. No, the analogy lies elsewhere. Think about it.

You have missed the point entirely, as usual.

Indeed. Despite what @Trailblazer wants to think, the analogy wasn't that torturing babies and homophobia are similar acts. It was that the religious argument behind determining morality can end up justifying both - despite them being very different.

 

[Jedster]

Good one, made me laugh that did, no platitudes required indeed. They should leap on that one, as an example of an atheist indulging wishful thinking.

Actually, it would be much easier on Bahais(and other religions) if their writings were not believed to be inerrant. Then they could pick the parts that they believed in.