Homosexuality and religious.

[dybmh]

The world today is submerged, amongst other things, in an over-exaggeration of the importance of physical love, and a dearth of spiritual values. In as far as possible the believers should try to realize this and rise above the level of their fellow-men who are, typical of all decadent periods in history, placing so much over-emphasis on the purely physical side of mating. Outside of their normal, legitimate married life they should seek to establish bonds of comradeship and love which are eternal and founded on the spiritual life of man, not on his physical life. This is one of the many fields in which it is incumbent on the Bahá’ís to set the example and lead the way to a true human standard of life, when the soul of man is exalted and his body but the tool for his enlightened spirit. Needless to say this does not preclude the living of a perfectly normal sex life in its legitimate channel of marriage.

Thank you for the answer. But I'm still confused. Maybe if I asked it this way:

Baha’u’llah teaches the unity of mankind and peace between races, religions and nations

How is homosexuality related to "unity of mankind and peace between races, religions and nations"? How does a ban on homosexuality affect "unity of mankind and peace between races, religions and nations"? They seem to me to be completely different issues and with different priorities.

If you compare "unity of mankind and peace between races, religions and nations" to homosexuality isn't "unity of mankind and peace between races, religions and nations" much much more important than homosexuality?

Do you know what I mean? The ban doesn't contribute to the cause. It's off message.

 

[YoursTrue]

It has the rational advantage of not needing subjective unevidenced claims, or supernatural magic, and appeals to superstition and mystery, and of course being based on overwhelming objective scientific evidence. Odd how you try to make that appear a bad thing, odd but very revealing.

Clearly there is and will be a dividing point. As to beliefs. And actions. I do not take any action to hurt a person practicing homosexuality, it's not my job. However, it's not something I approve of because the Bible says it's not a godly practice.

 

[F1fan]

Clearly there is and will be a dividing point. As to beliefs. And actions. I do not take any action to hurt a person practicing homosexuality, it's not my job. However, it's not something I approve of because the Bible says it's not a godly practice.

So you have decided that you are subserviant to words in the Bible, namely the Jewish text, yet you are Christian? Do you also avoid shellfish and mixed fibers? Or ignore those ungodly practices?

Seriously, have you ever eaten lobster or shrimp? Have you ever worn a poly-cotton t-shirt? Or acrylic-wool socks?

 

[CG Didymus]

It's a moving target. As with all major issues in Judaism there are multiple opinions. In general your assessment is correct. But I've never seen or heard anything hateful or accusations of evil
The liberal congregations are LGBTQ+ friendly. Homosexual couples are welcome, and homosexual clergy are accepted. The ultra orthodox don't accept it, and there are those in that community who have written opinions similar to what we're hearing from the Baha'i in this thread. They are permissive of the individual, but deem gay male sodomy to be an abomination. Female homosexuality is a lesser offense.

If you want details, check out the wiki article below. It explains it better than I can.

Jewish views on homosexuality - Wikipedia.

There is a conservative side and a liberal side within the Baha'i Faith too. The first Baha'is I met were very liberal. Peace and love and accepting everyone. Back then it was accepting hippies. The Baha'is I'm calling conservative were very much into obedience to the rules and laws of the Baha'i Faith. And it was tough to attract the interest of hippies by talking about a bunch of rules and laws and that it was necessary to obey them.

What might be happening with the gays could be similar. They are being told about the Baha'i Faith by the liberal Baha'is. All the love, peace and unity. Then they join, and then find out about the teachings against homosexuality after.

 

[CG Didymus]

Not inferior just not eternal.

Do Baha'is believe that all of the other religions have some wrong beliefs and some wrong practices? Now, does the Baha'i Faith have any wrong beliefs or wrong practices? I do think that Baha'is believe all the other religions do have somethings wrong. Whereas the Baha'i Faith doesn't. Which, if true, wouldn't that make the Baha'i Faith, at least in the minds of its followers, superior than the other religions?

 

[Trailblazer]

And by extension, the infallibility of yourself.

That does not compute.

 

[Trailblazer]

Infallibility? You have, it seems, turned Baha'u'llah into a god. I wonder if he would have approved.

The reason Baha'u'llah is infallible is because He was a Manifestation of God, so He perfectly reflected the Will of God (who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the Unknowable Essence).

That is called Divine Unity, and it applies to all the Manifestations of God, not only Baha'u'llah. That is why Jesus said “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) meaning that Jesus and God are one and the same, so whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself.” Gleanings, p. 167

No, Baha'u'llah would not approve of anyone saying He was God, since He adamantly disclaimed that He was God.

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 228

 

[Trailblazer]

So your beliefs are superior because you subjectively believe they come from a deity

No, they are superior because they come from the deity.

 

[Trailblazer]

Isn't it proper and polite to assume someone is moral until they show otherwise? Innocent till proven guilty?

I could have just as easily said: The opinions expressed that gay people are not moral or not an aberration are just that, merely opinions, unsupported by any objective evidence, and relying solely on personal opinions, since that is just as true, but that was not the response called for given what as posted to me that I was responding to.

 

[dybmh]

I could have just as easily said: The opinions expressed that gay people are not moral or not an aberration are just that, merely opinions, unsupported by any objective evidence, and relying solely on personal opinions, since that is just as true, but that was not the response called for given what as posted to me that I was responding to.

lacking evidence, the gay person should be assumed to be moral. innocent till proven guilty

 

[Trailblazer]

I will most likely not offer much else here, it is pointless. This will not change the Baha'i Law.

No, it won't change the Law. Only God can change the Law, through His Messengers.
Humanity best hold onto their hats, because that aint going to happen until at least the year 2852 AD.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is becoming apparent that large part of RF is not into Faith.

A place a person of Faith, should most likely avoid and leave them unto themselves.

Such is my current thoughts.

Regards Tony

And look at that, you said that on post #2000.
The sheer number of posts on this thread only demonstrates that what Shoghi Effendi is true:

"This indicates how the whole matter of sex and the problems related to it have assumed far too great an importance in the thinking of present-day society."

"spiritual low water mark in history" is the understatement of the year!

I am only on this thread for the fun, God knows I need more fun in my life.

"In another letter on the Guardian's behalf, also to an individual believer, the secretary writes:

'Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex…'

"This indicates how the whole matter of sex and the problems related to it have assumed far too great an importance in the thinking of present-day society.

'Such a chaste and holy life, with its implications of modesty, purity, temperance, decency, and clean-mindedness, involves no less than the exercise of moderation in all that pertains to dress, language, amusements, and all artistic and literary avocations. It demands daily vigilance in the control of one's carnal desires and corrupt inclinations.'

(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, a copy of which was sent to the compiler with a letter dated March 8, 1981)

Lights of Guidance/Chastity and Sex Education - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

 

[Trailblazer]

What is the unishment to Bahai folks who ignore the laws?

That would depend upon the Law they broke.

Well that's his oinion, why should you not form your own oinions?

I do.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you compare "unity of mankind and peace between races, religions and nations" to homosexuality isn't "unity of mankind and peace between races, religions and nations" much much more important than homosexuality?

I think so.

 

[Trailblazer]

God, I finally got to the end of this thread!
Can I eat dinner and watch some TV now?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm sorry you feel that way. The simple truth is: God says so is not a very good reason to discriminate. God gave us a brain to think and a heart to feel. Using God said so as a reason undermines our God given faculties. It denies our humanity.

Then you would quite simply not follow these laws. That is your choice.

Regards Tony

 

[KWED]

Actually, my best friend -- a very, very heterosexual man, with two of the best kids I've ever known -- confided to me that he really wished he could get into guys when he was younger, for exactly that reason.

(As he happens also to be totally gorgeous, I confess I might have approved. Alas, however...)

I have always said that I wish I was bisexual as it would open up many more avenues of enjoyment ('scuse the pun!), but I'm just not sexually attracted to men. Tried once when I was younger but could even get out to the batter's box. Which would also seem to refute the "lifestyle choice" argument.

 

[KWED]

What part of that "purged" is also a part of your vaunted Baha'i faith?

Despite @Trailblazer 's protestations, the article she linked as a defence confirms the Bahai position.

The quote "Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions." is on a page of "Bahai library online" entitled "Homosexuality", thus defining homosexuality as "an evil passion".

The irony is that she blithely quotes that page (even to the extent that the link to the page shows as "Homosexuality") in an attempt to claim that the page doesn't say what it clearly says.
The lack of awareness is bewildering.

@Sheldon

 

[KWED]

Then you would quite simply not follow these laws. That is your choice.

Not so. There are government laws that I acknowledge as flawed or unreasonable or unjust, but I still follow them because I don't want to incur the penalty for not doing so.
However, I will speak out against them or campaign to have them changed. I do not say "they must be reasonable and just because they are laws and the government must know what it's doing".
A pretty simple concept.

 

[KWED]

Ah so you think it's a coincidence they held the views, and the killing had nothing to do with it?

Yeah. Naziism was all sunshine and flowers. Unfortunately, it just attracted a few bad apples, for some reason. Can't blame Naziism for what the Nazis did, obvs!