Homosexuality and religious.

[Sheldon]

Trailblazer said: ↑
So what? Opinions don't kill people. If people feel guilty about their behavior they kill themselves and others blame religionists..

KWED said: ↑
"So what if my bigotry leads to a gay person taking their own life?"
Can you even hear yourself?

If it floats your boat to blame someone, go on ahead.

Like your religions and gay people you mean? This is of course just a lazy ad hominem, try addressing what you actually said. A retraction of that shameful post would be a start, and an abject apology to any posters here who happen to be gay. Here's a quote then for context:

No, I mean like you blaming religions for what people freely choose to do.

Like you freely choosing to post shameful and appalling homophobia. That you really ought to apologise for.

 

[Sheldon]

You said it:

Straw man. No, I did not say that gay people are "evil sexual aberrations that should be purged"

You certainly did it.

If you present a reasonable and cogent argument for why homosexuality if not evil, shameful, unnatural, should be purged, etc - then I will consider it.

You have no argument,

So unambiguously clear, you claimed there was no argument that gay people are not evil, shameful, unnatural and should not be purged etc.

 

[KWED]

That’s why God has given us the gift of science and the power of understanding to be able to correct defects that might be passed on.

Why did god create those defects in the first place?

 

[Sheldon]

No, I cannot provide that.
Out of curiosity -- could you provide a statement of what might be "objectively right about homosexuality?"

Yes, it is a natural derivation of adult human sexual desire that harms no one. Gay people are human beings who deserve the same rights as straight people, and to deny them this is patently prejudiced homophobia. Gay people have contributed greatly to every society they thrive in, imagine what might be achieved if they were not constantly persecuted by religious homophobic bigots.

 

[KWED]

All Baha’is already believe in Muhammad and the Quran.

So how do you reconcile your claims about universal tolerance, equality, peace, etc with all the violent intolerance and discrimination in the Quran and sunnah?
Let me guess, you just deny or ignore all the unpleasant stuff?

 

[Sheldon]

I didn't see him accusing anyone of bigotry. Just describing one of the features common in bigotry.

Indeed, it triggered a rather emotive response, one can only guess why. Maybe there is hope that religious homophobes do feel some guilt about blindly following vile religious bigotry? If they start to question it that would be a good start.

 

[Sheldon]

In this day, when information is freely available, I find it bizarre that someone who is openly gay and in a committed gay relationship would join a religion that has laws that prohibit homosexual behavior and complain about the terms and conditions their faith requires. Its like going to medical school, rejecting Western medicine and insisting on the right to be a practitioner of alternative medicine instead.

Yes it's the fault of the persecuted minority for not accepting the prejudiced bigotry of religions, talk about missing the point. Like saying it's not the KKK's fault they don't allow black people to join.

 

[KWED]

Baha’is make plenty of mistakes.

The obvious one is falling for Bahaullah's nonsense.

We Baha’is often lack wisdom and are very inexperienced and immature in many ways myself included.

And yet you all claim absolute certainty regarding the accuracy, reliability and honesty of Bahullah's claims.
How can someone "immature, inexperienced, and lacking in wisdom" be so sure about something so unverifiable, and unwilling to entertain any other explanations?

 

[KWED]

By spiritual values it’s referring to virtues such as love, compassion, justice, forgiveness etc

You seem to have a very jaded outlook on life. In my experience, there is plenty of that.
However, I'm not sure I would call them all "spiritual". Justice, for example, is very much something that can be observed and determined.

 

[samtonga43]

No, they are superior because they come from the deity.

Despite @Trailblazer 's protestations, the article she linked as a defence confirms the Bahai position.

The quote "Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions." is on a page of "Bahai library online" entitled "Homosexuality", thus defining homosexuality as "an evil passion".

The irony is that she blithely quotes that page (even to the extent that the link to the page shows as "Homosexuality") in an attempt to claim that the page doesn't say what it clearly says.
The lack of awareness is bewildering.
@Sheldon

This lack of awareness, in my experience, is due to a psychological phenomenon known as cognitive dissonance.

 

[KWED]

I’ve studied deeply about Baha’u’llah

If you did "study deeply" about Bahaism before joining, you will have come across the homophobic language. If you then still conclude that Bahaism is for you, you must therefore consider the homophobic language acceptable.
Can't really see any other way of looking at it (assuming that you didn't already consider homophobic language to be acceptable).

 

[KWED]

This lack of awareness, in my experience, is due to a psychological phenomenon known as cognitive dissonance.

Yep. It can do funny things to the mind. In some cases it is exacerbated by Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[KWED]

Most are not into bike racing. Can you believe it? Terrible.

Heathens!

 

[KWED]

1. I believe the only healthy sexual relationship is between a man and a woman within marriage
2. Which rights? Sexual rights? Outside the Baha’i Community I believe the only sexual rights which are legitimate are sexual relations between a man and a woman within marriage. The same within the Baha’i Community.

So "NO" and "NO".
I can understand why you are reluctant to express your position so clearly though.

 

[wellwisher]

So are you claiming that saying "Bahai texts call homosexuality an evil passion to be purged from the world, immoral, a shameful aberration, a handicap, affliction, against nature", is misrepresenting what Bahaism says about homosexuality?

During the time frames when most religious works were written, humans did not have modern science or modern medicine. Some combinations of human sexuality were observed to be more unsanitary and disease prone. If there had been an AIDs pandemic 2000 year ago, there would be mass death and no way to stop it. The people of the time would observe these things, correlate behavior, and then make some more taboo and others behavior more acceptable, based on the observed health and/or attrition.

Today we have all types of science and medical mops; good and services, to clean up after behavior that can still create natural pushback/feedback. Morality was not subjective and/or arbitrary but had a logical basis connected to healthy natural living, at a time before science and medicine learned to cheat mother nature, with artificial prosthesis. These criteria are still used today to help people differentiate behavior that are self standing natural, versus behavior that needs propping up to create an illusion or fantasy of natural. Resistance to total acceptance is there to keep the natural line in the sand, conscious, less unnatural gets ahead once again and causes lots of tragedy.

In the Bible, I never found any direct taboo against being lesbian. I have read where translation has lumped all references together as homosexual, but only gay behavior was singled out. Men are dogs and gay men can take this to the next level; Sodom and Gomorra without female resistance.

In terms of lesbians, polygamy was common due to war, death and the need to help widows with children avoid adultery; too many women and not enough men. Many women were not ready to forget the love of their life, but they needed assistance to help with their children; sisterhood.

Males are the one's that tend to think with the lower brains; daily desire to procreate. They tend to be the creators and spreaders of intimate diseases; spread of AIDS. This has not changed in thousands of years, so the push back is still there.

 

[KWED]

But I suppose you think that some day science will be able to cure the 'defect' of homosexuality.

Not "some day". Today!

"To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help of doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap."

Not only homophobic, but illegal in some countries!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Reading through the threads, it struck me as ironic that the folks truly impacted by this discussion weren't present. The folks I refer to are gay Baha'i, or gay folks looking into the faith. You had mentioned one person still active, but that seemed like confirmation bias to me, so I did my digging. Just today I found another one, which is an entire channel chronicling the struggles and challenges of gay Baha'i. You might be interested.

I linked the story of the guy in your video in an earlier post. I too wanted to have his voice heard as part of the discussion. There are of course many LGBT in the Baha'i community. I want to ensure they loved and valued as members of our community as with everyone else.

I've long been an advocate of LGBQT rights, and am encouraged that since 2006 the number of countries where there are laws discriminating against homosexuality has dropped from 92 to 70. That shows some progress, but obviously we still have a long ways to go. It will be interesting to me to follow the fellow in the video, to see if he gets any shifts in policy within your faith community.

My priority is to create community's that are loving and accepting of LGBT. The first step is modeling the change I wish to see in my community.

Obviously, I'm a Baha'i and there are limits and boundaries as you would have being a Hindu. You would never accept me as a Baha'i to be an accepted member of your Hindu community based on my Baha'i beliefs in Krishna. I do not ask you to change your beliefs and views but there should be reciprocity. You should not expect me to push against laws I consider from God.

 

[KWED]

I can’t say what science will discover. What if science proves in the future that homosexuality is a defect. Will you accept that?

If science discovered that homosexuality was actually caused by a genetic defect, then I would accept the findings if the evidence was sound.
However, it would not change my attitude towards homosexuality. I would still support the the same rights and protections for gay people as for straight people. And I would still condemn homophobia.

Down's syndrome is a genetic disorder. You can work the rest out yourself

If evidence shows that Bahaism is made up, would you accept it, or would you still believe?

 

[KWED]

This shines a very bad light on Bahia as a religion. If a religion can't inspire their believers to be better people then it can be classified as a general threat. It's ironic that Bahai talk about global unity but actively represent their leader's obsolete prejudice towards gays.
And this is one reason why Bahai will never be widely acceptd, nor succeed at unity. You can't prejudice against a class of people and expect it to appeal to decent folk.

Another delicious irony is that Bahullah said that people should leave a religion that causes enmity or discord
Also
"But the religion which does not walk hand in hand with science is itself in the darkness of superstition and ignorance". (Abdul Baha). You couldn't make it up!

 

[KWED]

We made thalimide which created severe birth defects. We do many things like destroy the environment which adversely affects our health. God is not to blame.

It’s us humans that cause these problems not God.

Thalidomide: a byword for tragedy – O&G Magazine

The issue is natural, congenital conditions that occur randomly - are cause by god, according to religious ideology. Of course, you could try the "only good things are from god, all the bad is from man" approach.