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Homosexuality and religious.

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well then can't the UHJ just declare that homosexuality is n longer condemned and is recognized as a moral norm, and no longer sees gays in a negative way?
The responsibilities of the UHJ are listed on this website.

Universal House of Justice - Wikipedia

Regarding the Bahai Laws, the UHJ cannot abrogate or change laws that were written by Baha'u'llah, but they can interpret and apply those laws. Regarding the laws, the following are the responsibilities of the UHJ.
  • Applying Bahá'í principles and laws
  • Developing, abrogating and changing laws that are not recorded in the Bahá'í sacred texts, according to the requirements of the time
  • Pronouncing sanctions against violations of Bahá'í law
  • Adjudicating and arbitrating of disputes referred to it
So, for example, since in the Aqdas Baha'u'llah wrote that under the law sex is only allowed between a man and a woman to whom he is married, so that law can never be changed. However, the UHJ has ruled that states that if a homosexual who has sex reassignment surgery can be married as a Baha'i.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
they could certainly choose not to enforce the law allowing gay people full participation.
Gay people are already allowed full participation in Baha'i activities.
Furthermore, what people do behind closed doors is their own business.

"When a person wishes to join the Faith and it is generally known that he has a problem such as drinking, homosexuality, taking drugs, adultery, etc., he should be told in a patient and loving way of the Bahá'í teachings on these matters. If it is later discovered that a believer is violating Bahá'í standards, it is the duty of the Assembly to determine whether the immoral conduct is open and scandalous and can bring the name of the Faith into disrepute, in which case the Assembly must take action to counsel the believer and require him to make every effort to mend his ways. If he fails to rectify his conduct in spite of repeated warnings, sanctions should be imposed. Assemblies, of course, must exercise care not to pry into the private lives of the believers to ensure that they are behaving properly."

Homosexuality
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
I understand and appreciate very much your concern. My understanding is that it’s mostly religious leaders which have caused strife and mischief throughout the ages not the Buddha or Founders of religions like Christ, Moses or Baha’u’llah.
Firstly Jesus isn't known to exist, and certainly didn't start Christianity. It was followers of stories about a character named Jesus who did, and they are mostly unknown. And Moses is considered a fictional character, yet the Hebrews existed well before that person was to have existed. Both Siddartha and Baha'u'llah were flawed people who had some level of wisdom. You treat Baha'u'llah as God, and that is your error. Maybe it's an error you adopted with the beliefs, I'm not sure. But you keep referring to God as an absolute truth when there is at least reasonable doubt that Baha'u'llah was a genuine prophet. Critical thinkers have serious doubts about any goids existing and we often admit that our level of evidence is for an actual God to appear and demonstrate itself.

So no wonder religious leaders have caused strife, there is no actual God keeping any of them in line. Good leaders will act in good faith, and bad will cause harm, because that is how power corrupts the human mind. I observe the Bahai on the forum as basically good people but have become more and more insistance and assertive that their beliefs and dogma is true. I see some signs of humility, but not where it counts. I actually had a pretty good opinion of Bahai until recently. This often happens as believers engage in debate and then find themselves defending the darker sides of their dogma. It brings out the darker side of the believer, and the believer doesn't see it. This is why I get concerned about any dogma that can't survive tests in reality.

My life now is so enriched because I turn to all the scriptures for guidance. For example because we are taught that Buddha taught truth I regularly read His Words and the same with the Gita and other Holy Books. They all teach virtuous character and that helps me have inner peace and contentment. I’m much happier now that I accept all truth and not just bits and pieces of one religion.
Sure, you have decided that the religion you picked is truth, yet it doesn't survive tests in reality. So seriously, what is deficient in your existence that you believed needed a religion to fill in the emptiness? Could it be self-confidence, pride, ego? This is a pattern common with many theists. They lack meaning in their lives through their own efforts, so attach themselves to an established "truth" that meaning is withdrawn from. It's meaning from association. So it is quite fragile as you do little to accomplish much at all exept obedience. You are likley aware that your morals are compromised because you have aligned yourself to a dogma that is prejudical. So I would not be surprised that this realization has caused a deep level of stress for you, and other Bahai trapped between dogma and a moral sense. I'm sympathetic, but to my mind it is like seeing a person deliberately hit their foot with a hammer. They feel geniune pain, but it is self-caused. My Sympathy is limited.

It brings joy to be at peace with all. It’s spiritually liberating to accept Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah all as my Teachers and mix with all their followers. It’s so uplifting. It’s such a wonderful experience to celebrate all the religions. It’s a good way to be and I think humanity has a lot to gain from accepting all faiths not just one.
Yet all this uplifing you feel and not a single word to condemn what Baha'u'llah said about gays, nor acknowledge that this prejudice has caused harm againt innocent people.

How can you feel uplifted in any way knowing your prophet was immoral?
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
The responsibilities of the UHJ are listed on this website.

Universal House of Justice - Wikipedia

Regarding the Bahai Laws, the UHJ cannot abrogate or change laws that were written by Baha'u'llah, but they can interpret and apply those laws. Regarding the laws, the following are the responsibilities of the UHJ.
  • Applying Bahá'í principles and laws
  • Developing, abrogating and changing laws that are not recorded in the Bahá'í sacred texts, according to the requirements of the time
  • Pronouncing sanctions against violations of Bahá'í law
  • Adjudicating and arbitrating of disputes referred to it
So, for example, since in the Aqdas Baha'u'llah wrote that under the law sex is only allowed between a man and a woman to whom he is married, so that law can never be changed. However, the UHJ has ruled that states that if a homosexual who has sex reassignment surgery can be married as a Baha'i.
That's a huge error by those people and their ambition to be a good influence on the world.

They assume the authority to interpret laws but not change them. Basically that suggests they see Baha'u'llah as God and infallible.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Actually, it would be much easier on Bahais(and other religions) if their writings were not believed to be inerrant. Then they could pick the parts that they believed in.

That is exactly why God sends another Messenger and why religion is renewed. People start picking and choosing what they want to follow of scriptures.

That is why there is a promise that one day the earth will reflect God's Kingdom.

I just read this before I reply to you, but it was perfect for this posy.

“O ye discerning ones of the people! Verily the words which have descended from the heaven of the will of God are the source of unity and harmony for the world. Close your eyes to racial difierences and welcome all with the Light of Oneness. Be the cause of the comfort and promotion of humanity. This handful of dust, the world, is one home: let it be in unity. Forsake pride, it is a cause of discord. Follow that which tends to harmony. Consort with all the people with love and fragrance. Fellowship is the cause of unity, and unity is the source of order in the world. Blessed are they who are kind and serve with love." Abdul'baha

Regards Tony
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
they could certainly choose not to enforce the law allowing gay people full participation.
Yeah, but to my mind it still would no go far enough. It's like the KKK being so open minded that they no longer actively oppress black people and even invite them to become members. The ideas and heritage of prejudice is still there, and it hangs over the organizations.

To my mind they should just assert that Baha'u'llah was a mortal and made mistakes at a time in history when gay prejudice was a social norm, and then eliminate the sex laws completely. Form a new law that says is any Bahai discriminates against gays they are out.

I'd be impressed, and would find that a moral act.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
It is becoming apparent that large part of RF is not into Faith.

A place a person of Faith, should most likely avoid and leave them unto themselves.

Such is my current thoughts.

Regards Tony

You can count on definite opposition from me whenever I read what I believe to be prejudicial religious claptrap like I've seen in this thread from some Baha'i followers, or similar ramblings from Christians and other Abrahamic theists in other threads. As far as I'm concerned, there is absolutely no excuse for overlooking that kind of belief, let alone adhering to such a belief, in this day and age.
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Yeah, but to my mind it still would no go far enough. It's like the KKK being so open minded that they no longer actively oppress black people and even invite them to become members. The ideas and heritage of prejudice is still there, and it hangs over the organizations.

To my mind they should just assert that Baha'u'llah was a mortal and made mistakes at a time in history when gay prejudice was a social norm, and then eliminate the sex laws completely. Form a new law that says is any Bahai discriminates against gays they are out.

I'd be impressed, and would find that a moral act.
Not gonna happen.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
They assume the authority to interpret laws but not change them. Basically that suggests they see Baha'u'llah as God and infallible.
The UHJ was given the authority by Baha'u'llah to interpret the laws.

Baha'u'llah was infallible because he perfectly reflected the Will of God, but that does not mean He was God. Baha'u'llah never claimed to be God, He disclaimed it.

As a Manifestation of God, Baha'u'llah was human, but He was also divine. He had a twofold nature, one nature human, the other nature divine. Because He was a Manifestation of God, Baha'u'llah perfectly reflected the Will of God (who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the Unknowable Essence) and as such Baha'u'llah was infallible.

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself.” Gleanings, p. 167
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I thought they were prohibited from participating in the 19 day feast and from voting in Baha'i elections. Is this incorrect?
That is incorrect, as far as I know. Only if sanctions were imposed because of flagrant violation of the laws which brought disrepute upon the faith would they be barred from voting rights. I am not sure about prohibitions from participating in the 19 day feast. I am sure @TransmutingSoul or @loverofhumanity or @Truthseeker would know more than I do about both these matters.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Sort of "if you don't see things as I do, I won't talk to you" attitude. I see.

This is the issue one has when they embrace Faith in God. God is the source of all wisdom, then there is wisdom in the given Law. This is Faith 101!

So it is not at all about seeing it my way, I just offer advice from a Message given by God. The Messengers faced this issue, they all knew their fate by offering such a Message.

Our issue is sorting out all the false prophets amongst the Truth given by God, and it is that process that is the cause of our diversity and conflicting thoughts.

If God gives a law, there is wisdom in that law, even if we are not yet to see that wisdom.

An example in this world is that not to embrace that wisdom, is like the rebellion of a child against the parent, the child wants their way and not that of the parent, unaware of the danger of that choice.

Wisdom is what guides this choice, it not a selfish choice to hold back. Baha'u'llah, no matter how copious are the Writings we have, also had destroyed just as much by having them thrown in the Tigris river, as mankind was not ready for them.

There is a lot that can be discussed, but topics such as these seem to dominate.

Regards Tony
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The UHJ was given the authority by Baha'u'llah to interpret the laws.

Baha'u'llah was infallible because he perfectly reflected the Will of God,
And this is a dubious claim that can only be acceted on faith. And since faith is notriously unreliable no reasonable verson would rely on faith. Since the believer ignores what is reasonable, and that faith is unreliable, it is questionable that anyone claims anything Baha'u'llah is true. To my mind there is adequate doubt that baha'u'llah is infallible, and so the truth rests on the thinking of the individual believer.


but that does not mean He was God.
Yet Bahai are treating what he wrote as if it is infallible and beyond question, so what is the difference? There is no actual God coming forth, just a man claiming he is informed by God. If you have no doubt, then you are treating the prophet as God, and assuming he is beyond error.


Baha'u'llah never claimed to be God, He disclaimed it.
So why don't you acknowledge that he is caable of error, like any other mortal? A flawed verson can get God's dictates, but still have flawed judgment, right?

As a Manifestation of God, Baha'u'llah was human, but He was also divine. He had a twofold nature, one nature human, the other nature divine. Because He was a Manifestation of God, Baha'u'llah perfectly reflected the Will of God (who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the Unknowable Essence) and as such Baha'u'llah was infallible.
Then he might as well be God. You write all this as if you accept it at face value, and no rational mind finds it credible or believable. It's all accpted on faith, and as noted, faith is unreliable. So despite your belief that Baha'u'llah is infallible, you aren't. You might be making a huge mistake beliving the claims of a lunatic.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
For the record, I regard this as the very essence of what "shunning" or "excommunication" really mean.

I would not shun, the person is not a Covernant breaker and is most likely a wonderful and loving soul. I ended up watching most of it, but there is always two sides to a story and for a Baha'i with the other side, that is held as confidential.

If one makes a video on it, then that already tells me their opinion was more important than the whole.

The Universal House of Justice has already offered much on this subject and I would think much guidance has been given, yet an agenda still needed to be pursued.

When one is half committed to the Laws of God, there will always be conflict and I say that from a position where I have had tha conflict, not from a position of self perceived righteousness.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I thought they were prohibited from participating in the 19 day feast and from voting in Baha'i elections. Is this incorrect?

Only if they have lost their voting rights.

@Trailblazer

On the video you will note that Baha'is was on a local spiritual assembly, thus had full voting rights.

The issue is, what was offered to that person from a Baha'i perspective would remain confidential, as such you will not get the other side of the story.

We have been guided to know that the faiths administrative order is organic, it needs time to grow before it can become Local houses of Justice. We have been forewarned that we will not always get it right, but the important thing is to embrace the decision, as only in that way can the unity be found so we can grow in wisdom and stop the infighting.

We have been foretold, that as the world falls further away from God's Message, the greater the challenge will be for the Baha'i to their own selves as well.

The crux here is the Law. It is written in stone. What is not written in stone is our attitude towards that law and our understanding of it, it is organic and relative to our own choices.

Regards Tony
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
God has endowed everyone with the capacity to know Him.


“Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He,
through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to
confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love
Him—a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the
primary purpose underlying the whole of creation.”


Bahá’u’lláh
So was that a "yes" or "no" to your opinions about god being infallible?

BTW, there is no need to copy paste Bahai scripture as an answer as it is meaningless to people not already convinced by it.
Rational, evidence based arguments are all we need.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
God has endowed everyone with the capacity to know Him.
“Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He,
through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to
confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love
Him—a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the
primary purpose underlying the whole of creation.”
Bahá’u’lláh
But as I have pointed out, a few credulous people going "wow, yeah, sooo profound" changes nothing.
 
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