Homosexuality and religious.

[KWED]

He’s a good person.

That doesn't answer my question "what do you mean by anti-Bahai".

You made the claim. Now own it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So in that case they cannot attend the 19 day feast either?

Yes, as the 19 fay feast has a three fold function, Spiritual Devotion, Administrative section and then the social part.

It can be they may attend both the social and devotional parts, but they would have to leave during the Administrative section.

All other functions apart from the elections, they could also attend.

Loss of voting rights is an Administrative sanction, with deep spiritual implications, as Baha'u'llah has made it a right for a Baha'i to vote in that process.

Regards Tony

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

This is the issue one has when they embrace Faith in God. God is the source of all wisdom, then there is wisdom in the given Law. This is Faith 101!

So it is not at all about seeing it my way, I just offer advice from a Message given by God. The Messengers faced this issue, they all knew their fate by offering such a Message.

Our issue is sorting out all the false prophets amongst the Truth given by God, and it is that process that is the cause of our diversity and conflicting thoughts.

If God gives a law, there is wisdom in that law, even if we are not yet to see that wisdom.

An example in this world is that not to embrace that wisdom, is like the rebellion of a child against the parent, the child wants their way and not that of the parent, unaware of the danger of that choice.

Wisdom is what guides this choice, it not a selfish choice to hold back. Baha'u'llah, no matter how copious are the Writings we have, also had destroyed just as much by having them thrown in the Tigris river, as mankind was not ready for them.

There is a lot that can be discussed, but topics such as these seem to dominate.

Regards Tony

Well, the plain fact of the matter is that this notion of "messengers from God" is probably the one thing that all atheists totally agree on. Our argument is as follows:

If God is all powerful, and if God can make His will known to one man, then God can make His will known to all men.

If God is all knowing, then God knows -- if not from ability to know the future, then at least from examples in the past -- that getting His message across using specially selected "messengers" is doomed to failure, will lead to misunderstandings and disagreements, and since the message is religious, it will also lead to war, persecution and great evil. As it has in every single case of a claimed "messenger from God" so far.​

As you say, "sorting out the false prophets" is an issue, and it is obvious to anyone looking that humans are routinely poor at doing that. In fact, if, as you claim, Baha'u'llah is a true prophet of God, and has been since 1863, then in 159 years, only about 1 tenth of 1 percent of the world's entire population has been able to manage the trick. This is an astonishingly poor showing for an all-powerful, all-knowing entity..

 

[KWED]

You don’t believe in God so now you’re blaming Him? You can’t have it both ways. Any defects were not God created in my understanding.

Hitchens wept!
You believe in a god. You have made claims about that god. I am asking questions about that god in the context of your belief.
You believe that god created people wit those defects.

 

[KWED]

The Quran teaches to return good for evil and to be peaceful with all.

No it doesn't. I suggest you read it!

 

[KWED]

Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend?
Bahá’u’lláh,

I was joking. I didn't actually expect you to use that argument!

 

[KWED]

God condemns the act not the people. If you read His Words you will know when He condemns someone. He has condemned Kings and religious leaders for killing innocent people but as to behaviour He condemns the acts.

That’s why Baha’is can be temporarily expelled if they discriminate against anyone. So if I continually abused a homosexual I would firstly be told a couple of times that it’s wrong and if I persisted I would be disciplined and banned from functions could be for years.

So you are continuing with the "I don't hate black people, I just don't like people being black" argument.

 

[KWED]

By that logic, the entire Baha'i populace should be temporarily expelled because they discriminate against gays.

But discriminating against gays doesn't count because they are evil, immoral, shameful aberrance, etc.
Obvs.

 

[KWED]

No matter what science discovers my attitude is always that they are equal fellow human beings. One of the main reasons I became a Baha’i was that I believed all humanity are one family and need to accept each other regardless of race, religion, nationality or lifestyle differences. I will always believe in the goodness of people.

You really can't bring yourself to answer a straight question, can you?

1. If evidence showed that Bahaism is made up, would you accept it is made up, or would you still believe?
2. Is science showed that homosexuality was harmless and beneficial, would you still insist that it is evil and immoral?

 

[KWED]

I would never ever think about condemning any Prophet or Buddha or Muhammad, Christ etc.

But according to Islamic records, Muhammad executed several hundred helpless prisoners, had sex with a child, and tortured people to death.
Why would you not condemn such a person?

 

[Trailblazer]

And this is a dubious claim that can only be acceted on faith. And since faith is notriously unreliable no reasonable verson would rely on faith. Since the believer ignores what is reasonable, and that faith is unreliable, it is questionable that anyone claims anything Baha'u'llah is true. To my mind there is adequate doubt that baha'u'llah is infallible, and so the truth rests on the thinking of the individual believer.

Since there is no proof that God exists or has any Messengers, a reasonable person relies upon faith and evidence, IF he wants to believe. If he cannot believe on faith and evidence then he just forgets the whole thing and remains a nonbeliever.

The truth does not rest on the mind of the individual believer. The truth is the truth, no matter what anyone believes. The decision as to what believe is what rests on the mind of the individual believer.

Yet Bahai are treating what he wrote as if it is infallible and beyond question, so what is the difference? There is no actual God coming forth, just a man claiming he is informed by God. If you have no doubt, then you are treating the prophet as God, and assuming he is beyond error.

There will never be an actual God coming forth, only Messengers of God who are Representatives of God.

I have no doubt because I believe that they are Manifestations of God who perfectly reflect the Will of God, and since God is inerrant, they are also inerrant.

So why don't you acknowledge that he is caable of error, like any other mortal? A flawed verson can get God's dictates, but still have flawed judgment, right?

Because a Manifestation is not a mere mortal, so He is unlike any other mortal. He has a twofold nature so He is a human but He also has a divine nature. No other mortal man has that.

Then he might as well be God.

He is not God because God is spirit, an invisible Essence and cannot ever become a flesh.
He is a Manifestation of God, the Representative of God in the flesh.

You write all this as if you accept it at face value, and no rational mind finds it credible or believable. It's all accpted on faith, and as noted, faith is unreliable. So despite your belief that Baha'u'llah is infallible, you aren't. You might be making a huge mistake beliving the claims of a lunatic.

I never accepted it at face value. I researched the claims and the evidence and then I accepted it.
You do what you must, but you might be making a big mistake rejecting the claims if He was a Messenger of God.

 

[KWED]

Not at all. I treat homosexuals as equals.

No you do not. You consider their innate being to be evil, immoral, against nature, shameful aberrance, etc.
Your words ring hollow because of your stated beliefs. Beliefs that you insist cannot be wrong.

 

[KWED]

Yes, as the 19 fay feast has a three fold function, Spiritual Devotion, Administrative section and then the social part.

It can be they may attend both the social and devotional parts, but they would have to leave during the Administrative section.

All other functions apart from the elections, they could also attend.

Loss of voting rights is an Administrative sanction, with deep spiritual implications, as Baha'u'llah has made it a right for a Baha'i to vote in that process.

Regards Tony

TBH, in these times of food banks, famine, poverty and children going hungry at school - a "19 day feast" sounds entirely selfish and out of touch with the reality of life.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
It is in the sense they are both wrong or harmful. A pear is not an apple, but analogously they are both fruit, see? It seems you really don't understand analogies. Analogous doesn't mean they are the identical...

Whether depriving people of sex is wrong or harmful is a moot point because nobody is depriving anyone of sex.

Shifting the goal posts again, as you claimed:

Trailblazer said: ↑
torturing babies is not analogous to depriving people of sex.

However the Bahai religion is insisting that gay people are immoral, unless they abstain from sex.

Just because religious laws exist that is not depriving anyone of sex as very few people obey the religious laws and obedience is voluntary.

This doesn't make it any less immoral, or the vile ideas that it espouses, for example like claiming to want a cogent reason or argument that homosexuality is not an evil aberration that should be purged.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God is all powerful, and if God can make His will known to one man, then God can make His will known to all men.

If God is all knowing, then God knows -- if not from ability to know the future, then at least from examples in the past -- that getting His message across using specially selected "messengers" is doomed to failure, will lead to misunderstandings and disagreements, and since the message is religious, it will also lead to war, persecution and great evil. As it has in every single case of a claimed "messenger from God" so far.

God has made His Will known to all men, through the Messenger of God.
God cannot just "show up" on Earth and say "I am God" because God is spirit, not flesh.

There is no other way from God to communicate to humans except via a human who is also divine.
It is because the Messenger is both human and divine that He can understand God and humans and act as a mediator between God and man.

God is all-knowing so God has always known that not everyone would recognize and accept His Messengers, but that never affected God since God needs no recognition or acceptance.

God had a Plan from the very beginning of time and that Plan is now being implemented. God has always known that in the future everyone will recognize and accept Baha'u'llah, bringing unity to mankind, but that future is a long way off.

 

[Trailblazer]

TBH, in these times of food banks, famine, poverty and children going hungry at school - a "19 day feast" sounds entirely selfish and out of touch with the reality of life.

Do you even know what the Baha'i 19 day feast is?
Hint: It is not a feast of food that lasts 19 days.
Guess who just committed the fallacy of jumping to conclusions?

There is no feasting at all, only some light refreshments offered in the Social part of the gathering.

Nineteen Day Feasts are regular community gatherings, occurring on the first day of each month of the Baháʼí calendar (and are often nineteen days apart from each other). Each gathering consists of a Devotional, Administrative, and Social part.

Nineteen Day Feast - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

However the Bahai religion is insisting that gay people are immoral, unless they abstain from sex.

The Baha'i Faith does not insist upon anything. Belonging to a religion and following it is a choice.
The Baha'i Faith does not single out homosexuals. Heterosexuals are also expected to abstain from sex unless they are married.

 

[CG Didymus]

Reading through the threads, it struck me as ironic that the folks truly impacted by this discussion weren't present. The folks I refer to are gay Baha'i, or gay folks looking into the faith. You had mentioned one person still active, but that seemed like confirmation bias to me, so I did my digging. Just today I found another one, which is an entire channel chronicling the struggles and challenges of gay Baha'i. You might be interested.

I've long been an advocate of LGBQT rights, and am encouraged that since 2006 the number of countries where there are laws discriminating against homosexuality has dropped from 92 to 70. That shows some progress, but obviously we still have a long ways to go. It will be interesting to me to follow the fellow in the video, to see if he gets any shifts in policy within your faith community.

Edited to add ... world map, document showing where it's sill illegal.
Nations with anti-LGBT laws: 49% Muslim, 44% Christian

I'm still behind. But I went even further back to finally watch this video. UHJ should tell Baha'is to stop telling gays that they are welcome and totally accepted in the Baha'i Faith. I hope some Baha'i watch the videos. But I know they'll have to support the UHJ's and the NSA's decisions. Which means they can't think for themselves when it comes to something that the Baha'i Faith teaches. They have obligated themselves to believe it and follow it.

 

[Sheldon]

So unambiguously clear, I claimed there was no argument that gay people are evil, shameful, unnatural or should be purged etc.

Nope, that's not what you said.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
However the Bahai religion is insisting that gay people are immoral, unless they abstain from sex.

The Baha'i Faith does not insist upon anything.

Of course it is don't be absurd. I have no patience for your semantics sorry.

Belonging to a religion and following it is a choice.

As is indulging and espousing discriminatory homophobia.

The Baha'i Faith does not single out homosexuals.

Of course it does, don't be absurd, it doesn't call straight people an evil sexual aberration that goes against nature.

Heterosexuals are also expected to abstain from sex unless they are married.

Unlike gay people, who your religion says can't have intercourse with people of the same sex or get married, ipso facto it discriminates against gay people.