Homosexuality and religious.

[loverofhumanity]

So you are continuing with the "I don't hate black people, I just don't like people being black" argument.

Those are your words not mine.

God disapproves of homosexuality but still loves all humanity. Just because a father doesn’t approve of the behaviour of his child doesn’t mean he hates it or is prejudiced against it.

Parents disciplining their children doesn’t mean they hate or don’t love them. God is as a loving father Who blesses us but on occasion disciplines us. Can you not see the common sense in that?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you think straight people are sexual aberrations that go against nature, who should not marry or have sex?

Come on, this ship has sailed.

equality
noun

1. the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, or opportunities.

I believe in equality but men and women have different ‘roles’ in life. That doesn’t mean they are not equal. A woman bears children whereas a man cannot. Does this mean nature is discriminating against men? Equality does not mean ‘sameness’.

So I believe in people of the opposite sex getting married and having kids.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, the unity under the Baha'i religion does work. But they are no longer practicing their old religions. What would the Baha'i Faith do with a Christian or Muslim that kept proclaiming fundamentalist beliefs about those religions? Or a white and black that kept proclaiming white power and black power?

The "unity" that the Baha'i Faith teaches that only people of the opposite gender can get married and have sex. So, if a homosexual wants to become united, completely, into the Baha'i community, they are expected to no longer participate in homosexual activities. For Baha'is to be fully unified, all of them has to follow all the Baha'i rules. If they did it would be a perfect Baha'i world. But people don't fully follow. Some still carry some prejudices and don't always show love and respect for others. Then there is the administration. I think they are too authoritative. But to be "unified", Baha'is have to obey them. Maybe it's better than other religions in a lot of things, but it's not perfect, because people, even Baha'i people, aren't perfect. But you know that.

People will never be perfect including Baha’is. All we can try and do is better ourselves. Of course we don’t entirely lose our culture or background when we become Baha’is.

For example I was born a catholic and adored Jesus when I was a kid. Now as a Baha’i I adore Him even more. And I adore Muhammad too now and the brilliant Quran. So I have kept and added to my beliefs.

In our Houses of Worship we read from the Torah, the Gospels, the Gita and Buddhist scriptures so we are continually proclaiming their truths. But although we are full of shortcomings, voluntary education is used to help us become better people. Through education we try and overcome our weaknesses and prejudices. But it takes time.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What does the Quran teach about homosexuality? And what do some Islamic sects actually do? Do some still kill them?

The Quran does not approve of homosexuality male or female. (mutatis mutandis)

Sura 7:81

Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."


Abdul-Baha said that shariah laws are mostly not taken from the Quran but devised by Mullas or Imams and so are not representative of God’s laws. So killing of homosexuals is not approved by God nor in the Quran. It is a man made law that can be changed because the Quran only disapproves of it but does not mention any punishment so homosexuals should not be killed.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Didn't you say you were taught about the Baha'i Faith by gay Baha'is? And, if so, how did they tell you about the Baha'i laws concerning homosexuality?

At the time nothing because I still didn’t know much about the Faith. But they allowed me to stay with them for months and provided food and accomodation. They told their gay friends I was not gay so to leave me alone. Awesome people.

 

[loverofhumanity]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ere-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death-2/

Shariah law does not originate from the Quran. It is made up by the priests and Mullas. The Quran does not specify any punishment for homosexuality. It only disapproves of it but that does not give the right to kill homosexuals. If there is no punishment in the Quran then it is going against the Quran to concoct one.

Sura 7:81

Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people.

On this text alone persecution, punishment and killing is not supported. Rather by not prescribing any punishment the Quran in fact is stating that there be no punishment but that it disapproves of it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As you say, "sorting out the false prophets" is an issue, and it is obvious to anyone looking that humans are routinely poor at doing that. In fact, if, as you claim, Baha'u'llah is a true prophet of God, and has been since 1863, then in 159 years, only about 1 tenth of 1 percent of the world's entire population has been able to manage the trick. This is an astonishingly poor showing for an all-powerful, all-knowing entity..

God does not alter our choices, but warns us of the results of poor choices. This situation is foretold in quite some broader detail. You have your choices, as we all do.

That is the whole purpose of this existence, it is for our benefit, not God's.

If we could see what was to come, we would give a myriad lives to embrace what God offered.

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

Since there is no proof that God exists or has any Messengers, a reasonable person relies upon faith and evidence, IF he wants to believe.

Faith isn't necessary for reasonable people. And why would a person want to believe? Do note that humans evolved as highly sociall beings and part of this behavior is to adopt the social norms, and it's done subconsciously, not deliberately.

If he cannot believe on faith and evidence then he just forgets the whole thing and remains a nonbeliever.

Atheists have a different te of experience. Most all atheists grow up exposed to religion and for various reasons end up rejecting these ideas. For me it was because I took the ideas literally. I really thought a God existed. I listened to what adults said, but unlike any of my siblings or cousins I questioned the ideas. I tested them. One thing I was told is that I were to think I was better than God I would die. I remember being around 9 or 10 and testing this idea. I survived. I remember watching my Catholic and Baptist cousins argue at family holidays, and over their religion, both Christians. This really made me question the cheery and lofty ideals that religions claim and their failure to deliver.

The truth does not rest on the mind of the individual believer.

Right, because beliefs are uncertain and not truth. Truth is factual and verifiable. Beliefs are we humans making a judgment about an idea based on zero to some evidence, and we could be in error either way. But we don't know.

The truth is the truth, no matter what anyone believes. The decision as to what believe is what rests on the mind of the individual believer.

As long as they understand that their beliefs are not truth. But we hear the opposite as believers refer to a God as if it really exists. there is total hubris, and a lack of humility. It is rampant with self-deception that a believer thinks their belief is truth.

It's fine to believe in untrue ideas, as long as the person is honest with themselves about it.

There will never be an actual God coming forth, only Messengers of God who are Representatives of God.

That's likley given none are present in people's experiences. And Messengers are likely not interacting with any God either. It's an extraordinary claim and if a God were to exist it would surely know this. A God would be better off interacting with all humans instead of single people. It makes no sense to di it this way. It's ineffective, and open to doubt.

I have no doubt because I believe that they are Manifestations of God who perfectly reflect the Will of God, and since God is inerrant, they are also inerrant.

Because a Manifestation is not a mere mortal, so He is unlike any other mortal. He has a twofold nature so He is a human but He also has a divine nature. No other mortal man has that.

He is not God because God is spirit, an invisible Essence and cannot ever become a flesh.
He is a Manifestation of God, the Representative of God in the flesh.

None of this is based on fact. It's not reasonable to assume is true given it's supernatural elements.

I never accepted it at face value. I researched the claims and the evidence and then I accepted it.

Yet your explanations are rampant with logical errors, and critical thinkers do not agree with your conclusion.

You do what you must, but you might be making a big mistake rejecting the claims if He was a Messenger of God.

This is a version of pascal's wager. Using this suggests you understand your position is not credible, as it is a deperate appeal to fear.

 

[F1fan]

I’ve been in this religion for 45 years and because of it have a happy and stable life. As soon as I discovered Who Baha’u’llah was I embraced His Cause with joy and happiness. Those who are unaware of the Source of this Faith will be unable to appreciate its significance.

Im filled with joy and happiness and indescribable inner peace and contentment each day because of Baha’u’llah. I thank God that I have been made worthy to accept this wonderful Cause while the world is still fast asleep and unaware of its greatness.

I understand that some people can feel a sense of peace when they live in a mental framework that gives them stability. If this was an ideal behavior from all humans it would be used by all humans instead of a large majority. That atheists exist and are happy and stable via their own wits has to be an annoyance to believers. We see all sorts of accustations of atheists being evil or soulless, and this seems to be a way to help believers justify their own dependence on a religious framework. I think many passive theists would be fine abandoning all religious ideas if their society did the same. We see many citizens of cultues all over the world conform to irrational ideas for the sake of belonging. And conformity is a very powerful influence over the subconscious mind.

This is a blessing that I could never be truly grateful for even if I were to give thanks to God for ‘a thousand ages and centuries’.

You are really trying to sell your beliefs and experiences. It's way over the top. I am suspious you are trying more to convince yourself than me. You might be hiding something.

I understand you feel strongly about these issues and others but our loyalty is to Baha’u’llah as we believe His Words are from God while people make errors of judgement and seem to be making up what’s right and wrong, good and bad and moral and immoral along the way without having any real idea.

And you as a fallible mortal could be making a mistake following Baha'u'llah. How would ordinary, flawed beings know?

And I find serious moral flaws in being loyal to a guru, while being an agent for this guru in showing no loyalty to your fellow humans who happen to be gay, and who seek happiness in their own natural being.

So if you want to believe homosexuality is moral then that’s your business

I never said it was moral or immoral. My personal attitude is that it is a natural phenomenon and has no impact on society in directly negative ways. Whether being gay, or gay people enjoying sex, is not a moral issue any more than heterosexuals having sex is. Those who have a problem tend to be religious and for obsolete reasons. Sex is a tyical religious hangup. Bahai are not exempt due to a poor judgment by Baha'u'llah.

just don’t try and force me to accept your views

This is an extreme and inaccurate accusation. Not only have I not forced you to do anything, how could I? We're on the internet.

And oddly, my view is more tolerant and accepting than than the one you decided to adopt. I'm offering a lucid and rational challenge to your reasons to decide your guru is correct and his clims are true. You have decided to resist considering the possibility that Baha'u'llah made a mistake. That could be your mistake. You've decided this fellow deserves all your trust and devotion, for your own needs, and as a result you have a compromised religion.

because I believe what Baha’u’llah said is true and have all my life believed it to be immoral as a catholic and when I was an atheist.

If you have been a Bahai for 45 years, and before that you were Catholic and athiest that doesn't leave much time in time when your brain was fully developed, after 27. So it might be that your mind wasn't able to understand the solid arguments that support an atheist view. After 40 our brains crystalize and we are resistance to change. It takes more effort to adjust our beliefs and thinking.

But I have homosexual friends and my beliefs don’t cause me to be unkind to them. On the contrary they accept me as their friend and don’t bully me to accept their beliefs unlike people here.

I doubt you bring up the dark side of Bahai and Baha'u'llah when talking to them.

It reminds me about my granduncle. He lived in Texas and he was a racist. He would refer to black veople using the detogatory term (I wont mention) right in front of us kids. We kids knew it was wrong, but he didn't care. Oddly he had black guys who worked for him, and he was nice to them, and even said good things about them when they did good work. But at home he referred to them using a derogatory term. So he had deep rooted prejudice was was there, even though he was nice to them.

It’s disgraceful that we are being bullied here to turn against our own religion and Prophet because of fanatics who want to force us to accept their views. We don’t come here condemning people for not accepting Baha’u’llah, that is their belief so we respect that.

I understand you are defensive. The solution is to not put your religious beliefs up for open discussion. It's fair game to discuss the troubling nature of Baha'u'llah's views on gays. We critics have been respectful. You have to accept the flaws with your prophet just as gays, blacks, and other minorities have to deal with discrimination for who they are. Call it karma.

 

[We Never Know]

I understand that some people can feel a sense of peace when they live in a mental framework that gives them stability. If this was an ideal behavior from all humans it would be used by all humans instead of a large majority. That atheists exist and are happy and stable via their own wits has to be an annoyance to believers. We see all sorts of accustations of atheists being evil or soulless, and this seems to be a way to help believers justify their own dependence on a religious framework. I think many passive theists would be fine abandoning all religious ideas if their society did the same. We see many citizens of cultues all over the world conform to irrational ideas for the sake of belonging. And conformity is a very powerful influence over the subconscious mind.


You are really trying to sell your beliefs and experiences. It's way over the top. I am suspious you are trying more to convince yourself than me. You might be hiding something.


And you as a fallible mortal could be making a mistake following Baha'u'llah. How would ordinary, flawed beings know?

And I find serious moral flaws in being loyal to a guru, while being an agent for this guru in showing no loyalty to your fellow humans who happen to be gay, and who seek happiness in their own natural being.


I never said it was moral or immoral. My personal attitude is that it is a natural phenomenon and has no impact on society in directly negative ways. Whether being gay, or gay people enjoying sex, is not a moral issue any more than heterosexuals having sex is. Those who have a problem tend to be religious and for obsolete reasons. Sex is a tyical religious hangup. Bahai are not exempt due to a poor judgment by Baha'u'llah.


This is an extreme and inaccurate accusation. Not only have I not forced you to do anything, how could I? We're on the internet.

And oddly, my view is more tolerant and accepting than than the one you decided to adopt. I'm offering a lucid and rational challenge to your reasons to decide your guru is correct and his clims are true. You have decided to resist considering the possibility that Baha'u'llah made a mistake. That could be your mistake. You've decided this fellow deserves all your trust and devotion, for your own needs, and as a result you have a compromised religion.


If you have been a Bahai for 45 years, and before that you were Catholic and athiest that doesn't leave much time in time when your brain was fully developed, after 27. So it might be that your mind wasn't able to understand the solid arguments that support an atheist view. After 40 our brains crystalize and we are resistance to change. It takes more effort to adjust our beliefs and thinking.


I doubt you bring up the dark side of Bahai and Baha'u'llah when talking to them.

It reminds me about my granduncle. He lived in Texas and he was a racist. He would refer to black veople using the detogatory term (I wont mention) right in front of us kids. We kids knew it was wrong, but he didn't care. Oddly he had black guys who worked for him, and he was nice to them, and even said good things about them when they did good work. But at home he referred to them using a derogatory term. So he had deep rooted prejudice was was there, even though he was nice to them.


I understand you are defensive. The solution is to not put your religious beliefs up for open discussion. It's fair game to discuss the troubling nature of Baha'u'llah's views on gays. We critics have been respectful. You have to accept the flaws with your prophet just as gays, blacks, and other minorities have to deal with discrimination for who they are. Call it karma.

Homosexuality "My personal attitude is that it is a natural phenomenon"

That is somewhat shown with others species, yet questionable.

However...
What's your personal attitude toward transgenders? It can't be shown natural with other species that I am aware of.

 

[F1fan]

Those are your words not mine.

God disapproves of homosexuality but still loves all humanity.

This is a claim, not a fact. No gods are known to exist, so no mortal can claim what any god wants or says. You might trust your guru, but you can't impose your decision as if it is a fact in a debate.

And even if a God does exist in the way Genesis depicts, why would it create gays only to disapprove of them? It makes no sense.

Just because a father doesn’t approve of the behaviour of his child doesn’t mean he hates it or is prejudiced against it.

It would be odd if the father taught the child to be a killer and then disapproved of the child murdering people.

Parents disciplining their children doesn’t mean they hate or don’t love them. God is as a loving father Who blesses us but on occasion disciplines us. Can you not see the common sense in that?

It doesn't work with gays. God created gays. God then condemns them?

 

[Trailblazer]

Those are your words not mine.

God disapproves of homosexuality but still loves all humanity. Just because a father doesn’t approve of the behaviour of his child doesn’t mean he hates it or is prejudiced against it.

Parents disciplining their children doesn’t mean they hate or don’t love them. God is as a loving father Who blesses us but on occasion disciplines us. Can you not see the common sense in that?

You just reminded me of this quote:

"How ignorant therefore the thought that God who created man, educated and nurtured him, surrounded him with all blessings, made the sun and all phenomenal existence for his benefit, bestowed upon him tenderness and kindness, and then did not love him. This is palpable ignorance, for no matter to what religion a man belongs even though he be an atheist or materialist nevertheless God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light."

('Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, Vol. 8, issue 7, p. 78)

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't work with gays. God created gays. God then condemns them?

God did not create gays and God does not condemn them. God only condemns their sexual behavior.

 

[F1fan]

Homosexuality "My personal attitude is that it is a natural phenomenon"

That is somewhat shown with others species, yet questionable.

However...
What's your personal attitude toward transgenders? It can't be shown natural with other species that I am aware of.

I have mixed feelings about it. I really don't know much about it at all. I'm waiting for experts to assess and report, and then I will defer to their exvertise.

It's OK to not be an expert in issues and not have an opinion.

I have deferred to experts in the social sciences to inform my attitudes about homosexuality. I'm not gay, and have no personal interest either way. I do support freedom and the rights of individuals to be who they are, and want to be.

An ex-girlfriend's daughter is trans and she transitioned many years ago. The daughter made the decision to transition, and didn't want to debate it. My ex and me did talk quite a lot about it because it was personal. I have mixed feelings about it, but that is mostly because I want answers that I can't have. So I accept that and await more info.

 

[F1fan]

God did not create gays and God does not condemn them. God only condemns their sexual behavior.

You aren't stating any facts here, so how are these claims relevant?

What is a fact is that homosexuality exists in humans and other animals. That suggests a natural phenomenon.

If your version of God does exist, and it created all things, then it created gays. Feel free to change your God to fit your beliefs.

 

[We Never Know]

I have mixed feelings about it. I really don't know much about it at all. I'm waiting for experts to assess and report, and then I will defer to their exvertise.

It's OK to not be an expert in issues and not have an opinion.

I have deferred to experts in the social sciences to inform my attitudes about homosexuality. I'm not gay, and have no personal interest either way. I do support freedom and the rights of individuals to be who they are, and want to be.

An ex-girlfriend's daughter is trans and she transitioned many years ago. The daughter made the decision to transition, and didn't want to debate it. My ex and me did talk quite a lot about it because it was personal. I have mixed feelings about it, but that is mostly because I want answers that I can't have. So I accept that and await more info.

If science says there is no gay gene and no straight gene, what do we do? Does that mean there are no transgender genes too?

"There is no single gene responsible for a person being gay or a lesbian.

That's the first thing you need to know about the largest genetic investigation of sexuality ever, which was published Thursday in Science. The study of nearly a half million people closes the door on the debate around the existence of a so-called "gay gene."

In its stead, the report finds that human DNA cannot predict who is gay or heterosexual. Sexuality cannot be pinned down by biology, psychology or life experiences, this study and others show, because human sexual attraction is decided by all these factors.

"This is not a first study exploring the genetics of same-sex behavior, but the previous studies were small and underpowered," Andrea Ganna, the study's co-author and genetics research fellow at the Broad Institute and Mass General Hospital, said in a press briefing on Wednesday. "Just to give you a sense of the scale of [our] data, this is approximately 100 times bigger than any previous study on this topic."

Sexuality cannot be pinned down by biology, psychology or life experiences, this study and others show, because human sexual attraction is decided by all these factors."

Read more here

https://www-pbs-org.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/science/there-is-no-gay-gene-there-is-no-straight-gene-sexuality-is-just-complex-study-confirms?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw==#aoh=16645977299743&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/there-is-no-gay-gene-there-is-no-straight-gene-sexuality-is-just-complex-study-confirms

 

[We Never Know]

A condom would reverse that trend, so the cost might be easily eradicated with timely sex education, including the many variations of sex that both gay and straight couples can enjoy. Diseases are sadly a natural result of evolution, as all life has evolved in unison competing for survival.

Were it of course designed deliberately, by a deity for example, that would make that deity a barbarically cruel monster.

"Diseases are sadly a natural result of evolution"

So was covid... So why such a big fuss?
It like other disease can be mostly avoided with proper precautions.

 

[F1fan]

If science says there is no gay gene and no straight gene, what do we do? Does that mean there are no transgender genes too?

"There is no single gene responsible for a person being gay or a lesbian.

That's the first thing you need to know about the largest genetic investigation of sexuality ever, which was published Thursday in Science. The study of nearly a half million people closes the door on the debate around the existence of a so-called "gay gene."

In its stead, the report finds that human DNA cannot predict who is gay or heterosexual. Sexuality cannot be pinned down by biology, psychology or life experiences, this study and others show, because human sexual attraction is decided by all these factors.

"This is not a first study exploring the genetics of same-sex behavior, but the previous studies were small and underpowered," Andrea Ganna, the study's co-author and genetics research fellow at the Broad Institute and Mass General Hospital, said in a press briefing on Wednesday. "Just to give you a sense of the scale of [our] data, this is approximately 100 times bigger than any previous study on this topic."

Sexuality cannot be pinned down by biology, psychology or life experiences, this study and others show, because human sexual attraction is decided by all these factors."

Read more here

https://www-pbs-org.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/science/there-is-no-gay-gene-there-is-no-straight-gene-sexuality-is-just-complex-study-confirms?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw==#aoh=16645977299743&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/there-is-no-gay-gene-there-is-no-straight-gene-sexuality-is-just-complex-study-confirms

As far as i know science has not ruled out genetics, or any other cause. From what I know they simply have no cause to point to. The work goes on.

Earthquakes had no explanation for millennia. The guys of Monty python made a joke about this in the Holy Grail. Authur asks Belvedere to explain how applying sheep's bladders will prevent earthquakes. He didn't mention where they were applied. I'm still curious. The work goes on.

 

[We Never Know]

As far as i know science has not ruled out genetics, or any other cause. From what I know they simply have no cause to point to. The work goes on.

Earthquakes had no explanation for millennia. The guys of Monty python made a joke about this in the Holy Grail. Authur asks Belvedere to explain how applying sheep's bladders will prevent earthquakes. He didn't mention where they were applied. I'm still curious. The work goes on.

I gave you a link. Did you not read it?

Earthquakes aren't genetic.

 

[CG Didymus]

The good thing about the Baha’i view is that it tries to avoid punishment preferring education. So if a person commits a crime, the hope would be to instil into the person such a longing and desire to be of value to society tyat to offend again would be unthinkable.

But there are crimes that Baha'u'llah has told Baha'is what he wants done to them...

Exile and imprisonment are decreed for the thief, and, on the third offense, place ye a mark upon his brow so that, thus identified, he may not be accepted in the cities of God and His countries. Beware lest, through compassion, ye neglect to carry out the statutes of the religion of God; do that which hath been bidden you by Him Who is compassionate and merciful.

Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn; should anyone deliberately take another’s life, him also shall ye put to death. Take ye hold of the precepts of God with all your strength and power, and abandon the ways of the ignorant. Should ye condemn the arsonist and the murderer to life imprisonment, it would be permissible according to the provisions of the Book. He, verily, hath power to ordain whatsoever He pleaseth.
​

And, since we are told over and over that the laws apply only to Baha'is, these thieves, arsonists and murderers are Baha'is? Or, since Baha'is would not have the authority to carry out these punishments if they were still a small and powerless religion, is this talking of a time when Baha'i laws would be the law for all people the world over? And at such a time, then what would Baha'is do with sex offenders... those that commit adultery and those that have homosexual sex? Love them? Educate them? Or try and "purge" what Baha'is believe to be deviant sexual behavior out of society?