Homosexuality and religious.

[CG Didymus]

Did you investigate on your own, CG?

My response was to this...

That is very telling of the problem. One Baha'i won't watch the video, because he doesn't want to hear the complaints of some "disgruntled" gay Baha'i. And now, "that's 22 minutes of my life I'll never get back"? Why are the non-Baha'is more open to listening and hearing what they have to say? Baha'is have to be able to get in there without the prejudices and biases of their religion and just listen to what they have to say.

Baha'i didn't want to hear the story from the gay Baha'is pov.

Uh. Is there a word for 'independent investigation' that means only Baha'i approved resources can be used? I'll have to coin one. Bahainvestigation?

Then my response to this was...

Before a person becomes a Baha'i, they are to investigate on their own, preferably by using mostly pro-Baha'i sources. That way, it's more likely they will come to see that the Baha'i Faith is the absolute truth. So, they join. Once they're in, then they are to do and believe whatever the Baha'i writings says for them to do and believe. And, apparently, listening to ex-Baha'is is not something they should do. And I can see that. That way the Faith continues to look all rosy. Why would they want to hear all the negative stuff?

And it is kind of true. When a person goes to a Baha'i fireside meeting, they are told what to read in order to learn more about the Baha'i Faith. It doesn't include things that ex-Baha'is have written. What covenant breakers have written. Or what people in other religions and what atheists have written about the Baha'i Faith.

When I first learned about the Baha'i Faith, it was an "investigation" about what they taught. I didn't learn about the negatives until Christians told me how the Baha'is were wrong about what they said about the Bible and Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have an aversion to prejudice and bigotry.

Baha'is are against prejudices of all kinds... except "righteous" prejudice. If God says he don't like something, then it's okay.

The Baha'i Faith fully embraces having LGBQT in our communities. Enrolment is another issue and being in an openly gay relationship would be a barrier.

"Fully" embrace? But enrollment would be a problem?

Only if they deny who they are, and so it openly discriminates against them. As is abundantly clear in this thread.

I don't know what the Baha'i argument is? They should just say, "Yes, they can't be full-fledged members unless they change their ways. It's not us. We just go by what God says."

Yeah, and that's the problem. Their prophet, in the middle of a Muslim country, more than 150 years ago, said that God told him that? And there's not a chance he was wrong? "No", they say, "He's infallible"?

 

[CG Didymus]

God has endowed everyone with the capacity to know Him.

I don't believe you, please demonstrate some objective evidence for your claim, or even something beyond a bare assertion.

God has given people a brain that can be taught to believe almost anything... even that there is an unknowable, invisible God.

 

[CG Didymus]

I thought they were prohibited from participating in the 19 day feast and from voting in Baha'i elections. Is this incorrect?

Only if they get caught. If they go back into the closet and stay there, then the Baha'i administrative authorities have no problem. But a lot of Baha'is, gay or not, become "inactive". They don't go to the feasts and don't vote but are still counted as being Baha'is.

 

[CG Didymus]

Not gonna happen.

And it's "God's" law for at least 1000 years.

 

[Dawnofhope]

What is a couple to do then? Not join?

If a gay couple wants to be part of the Baha'i community, including our core activities and just hanging out in each other's home, there is no problem. If they wish to enrol as Baha'is and have full administrative rights AND continue to cohabit as a same sex couple, they will most likely be disappointed.

 

[Trailblazer]

You aren't stating any facts here, so how are these claims relevant?

I was not making any claims, I was just responding to what you said.
You said that God created gays. I said that God did not create gays.

What is a fact is that homosexuality exists in humans and other animals. That suggests a natural phenomenon.

So what if it is a natural phenomenon? Lots of things occur in nature. What does that prove?

If your version of God does exist, and it created all things, then it created gays. Feel free to change your God to fit your beliefs.

I don't have to change God to fit my beliefs because I do not believe that God created humans. I believe that humans evolved over the course of time. The formation of new genes is a primary driving force of evolution but there is no scientific evidence that people are born gay.

There is no ‘gay gene.’ There is no ‘straight gene.’ Sexuality is just complex, study confirms

Massive Study Finds No Single Genetic Cause of Same-Sex Sexual Behavior

No ‘gay gene’: Massive study homes in on genetic basis of human sexuality

 

[CG Didymus]

This is the issue one has when they embrace Faith in God. God is the source of all wisdom, then there is wisdom in the given Law. This is Faith 101!

Again, faith in which religion? In which God? Baha'is disagree with Christians that put their whole faith in a literal interpretation of what the Bible and the NT says about God.

If one makes a video on it, then that already tells me their opinion was more important than the whole.

Their story is important. It is what this "loving" religious community did to them. They believe they were not treated fairly. You, I assume, believe they were and should just keep quiet.

 

[Dawnofhope]

We can read their stories and watch their videos and find out why they joined. But now that they have joined, what is the proper and just thing to do with them? Get them to stop practicing homosexual behaviors? The Baha'is has got to be "yes". If they don't get married to someone of the opposite gender, then they are to be celibate and not even have sex with themselves? I think that is probably a "yes" also. Then what is they are married to their partner? The Baha'is expect them to get a divorce? Another "yes"?

Then I totally agree with you, why did they join? Unless they didn't know?

I believe joining a religion is an important step and there should be considerable investigation beforehand. Then again some people join without investigating, become aware of certain laws and practices and decide its not for them. However they are ultimately responsible for joining a religion without proper investigation in the first place. Some responsibility rest with whoever has taught them about the faith to ensure they are sufficiently prepared before joining. Assemblies have a role to play.

So its problematic if a gay couple are enrolled in the first place. Its much easier to have that conversation before one enrols than having to consider imposing administrative restrictions. Of course the couple could separate but that is their choice.

 

[Trailblazer]

If a gay couple wants to be part of the Baha'i community, including our core activities and just hanging out in each other's home, there is no problem. If they wish to enrol as Baha'is and have full administrative rights AND continue to cohabit as a same sex couple, they will most likely be disappointed.

If they enroll as Baha'is and have full administrative rights AND continue to cohabit as an unmarried heterosexual couple, wouldn't they be subject to the same sanctions?

 

[CG Didymus]

If a gay couple wants to be part of the Baha'i community, including our core activities and just hanging out in each other's home, there is no problem. If they wish to enrol as Baha'is and have full administrative rights AND continue to cohabit as a same sex couple, they will most likely be disappointed.

Yes, but some Baha'is keep talking as if they will be completely accepted as is. And, like some Baha'is have said, everyone joining the Baha'i Faith is expected to change certain behaviors. But being gay is probably one of the most difficult ones to change. And something that non-Baha'is wonder why Baha'is can't just fully accept them as is without expecting them to change. And it all comes down to, Baha'is believe that homosexuality is not right, according to Baha'i teachings. That it is wrong in the sight of God and must be changed. Obviously, in this day and age, not a popular belief to hold.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If they enroll as Baha'is and have full administrative rights AND continue to cohabit as an unmarried heterosexual couple, wouldn't they be subject to the same sanctions?

Yes. There is no difference in the treatment of gay couples and heterosexual unmarried couples cohabiting. As both are flagrantly and publicly breaking Baha'i laws, it forces the assembly to act.

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe joining a religion is an important step and there should be considerable investigation beforehand. Then again some people join without investigating, become aware of certain laws and practices and decide its not for them. However they are ultimately responsible for joining a religion without proper investigation in the first place. Some responsibility rest with whoever has taught them about the faith to ensure they are sufficiently prepared before joining. Assemblies have a role to play.

So its problematic if a gay couple are enrolled in the first place. Its much easier to have that conversation before one enrols than having to consider imposing administrative restrictions. Of course the couple could separate but that is their choice.

In normal teaching of the Baha'i Faith, it is the basics of the history and the basic principles. I was with Baha'is 50 years ago on mass-teaching projects. At night the people that were interested came to a meeting where they were told more of the basics... peace, unity, love, all religions are one, abolishing all prejudices, etc. then they were asked if they wanted to join. The deepening and investigation came later.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If they enroll as Baha'is and have full administrative rights AND continue to cohabit as an unmarried heterosexual couple, wouldn't they be subject to the same sanctions?

Yes. There is no difference in the treatment of gay couples and heterosexual unmarried couples cohabiting As both are flagrantly and publically breaking Baha'i laws, it forces the assembly to act.

There needs to be clarity here.

A heterosexual couple living together under the laws of the land and then come Baha'i are seen to be already married.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

But discriminating against gays doesn't count because they are evil, immoral, shameful aberrance, etc.
Obvs.

Exactly, the religion tells them that God hates it and thinks it is wrong, so they have to believe that also. Making it okay to hate evil and evil doers. At least Baha'is say they "love" gays... just not their "abnormal" sexual practices.

 

[CG Didymus]

But according to Islamic records, Muhammad executed several hundred helpless prisoners, had sex with a child, and tortured people to death.
Why would you not condemn such a person?

Because they believe he was a "manifestation" of God, they will have to either deny it or say that it was justified.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Exactly, the religion tells them that God hates it and thinks it is wrong,

To be clearer CG, God does not hate, but does set standards for us, if we trangress, we are wrong.

God can change any laws, so what was once wrong is now right.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, but some Baha'is keep talking as if they will be completely accepted as is.

I'm not hearing that from Baha'is. There is a clear distinction between being part of the Baha'i community and being an enrolled member of the Baha'i Faith.

And, like some Baha'is have said, everyone joining the Baha'i Faith is expected to change certain behaviors.

Some behaviors do need to change. The Baha'i administration avoids prying into peoples lives though so its largely between the individual believer and God.

But being gay is probably one of the most difficult ones to change.

I provided you with stats on sexual fluidity earlier in the thread. It seems to be much harder for gay men (10%) to change their sexual idenity in 10 years compared to (60%) for gay women. Interestingly its much harder for heterosexuals to change to being gay than gays to change to being heterosexual.

And something that non-Baha'is wonder why Baha'is can't just fully accept them as is without expecting them to change.

It's pretty clear isn't it? Baha'is believe in God, His Messengers and certain laws.

And it all comes down to, Baha'is believe that homosexuality is not right, according to Baha'i teachings. That it is wrong in the sight of God and must be changed.

That's an important part of the picture, yes.

Obviously, in this day and age, not a popular belief to hold.

Obviously not.

 

[CG Didymus]

I find it equally as bizarre why someone who espouses equality and justice for all could possibly remain in a faith that doesn't do that. Unless of course denial works for you.

150 years ago in a Muslim country, it was probably no big deal. Even 50 years ago, in the West, society was extremely anti-homosexual. I don't even know if anyone called them "gays". They had other word for them. So, then the protests happened... Women's rights. Black's right. Gay rights etc. The Baha'is are okay with the first two, but do they believe in Gay rights?

No. They can't get married, and they can't be doing what they do to each other.

 

[CG Didymus]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ere-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death-2/

So, I wonder, do Baha'is believe Sharia law is from God? And that prior to the coming of Baha'u'llah, Sharia law was the just and true law from God?