Homosexuality and religious.

[KWED]

In this day, when information is freely available, I find it bizarre that someone who is openly gay and in a committed gay relationship would join a religion that has laws that prohibit homosexual behavior and complain about the terms and conditions their faith requires. Its like going to medical school, rejecting Western medicine and insisting on the right to be a practitioner of alternative medicine instead.

In this day, when information is freely available, when people are far better educated, where there are natural explanations for most things, where, science can do what once only gods could, I find it bizarre that someone would believe the superstitious nonsense found in religious doctrine.

 

[KWED]

So, they have to, by law, let them in? Then sanction them and make their lives so miserable that they quit? Okay, yeah, I can see that.

Maybe some gay people would join just to wind them up?
But the point is about having the right to do something, even if you don't exercise it.

 

[CG Didymus]

So? You look up if other people see God hates and post that?

So if one wants to know what God says about hate, here are some quotes. If we are warned against hate, one must conclude God does not Hate, but gives laws for us to Love.

Hatred | Bahá’í Quotes

I gather you are talking about the possible positive side of hate, to which I remember a thread some time ago?

Hate is not a good word thought.

Regards Tony

That's from the Bible. If "hate" is not the best interpretation of the Hebrew word, then fine. But I think the word would still mean that God dislikes those things.

 

[CG Didymus]

Its kinda of a long time ago...like 3,500 years. I think we've all moved on

loverofhumanity is that old? Or maybe this is what I was talking about...

Didn't you say you were taught about the Baha'i Faith by gay Baha'is? And, if so, how did they tell you about the Baha'i laws concerning homosexuality?

At the time nothing because I still didn’t know much about the Faith. But they allowed me to stay with them for months and provided food and accomodation. They told their gay friends I was not gay so to leave me alone. Awesome people.

Then I asked him if he still was in contact with them. Because it would be interesting to know how they are doing. And if they are still gay or have been "healed" of their condition.

 

[KWED]

One of the main reasons I became a Baha’i was that I believed all humanity are one family and need to accept each other regardless of race, religion, nationality or lifestyle differences.

So do I, but I don't need to adopt a load of superstitious and intolerant nonsense to hold or express that idea.
Also, Bahaism doesn't accept some lifestyles - so it doesn't satisfy your beliefs.

The only reason I can see for anyone to join any religion is in the hope that the supernatural claims, like an afterlife for the chosen, are true.
There is nothing practical that any religion does that cannot be done without a belief in gods. It is only the desire for reward/fear of punishment that makes any sense.
Religious belief is essentially an act of self-interest.

 

[KWED]

I think it’s like a 6th sense that humans have to be able to recognise the Prophets of God.

So why have only 0.07% of humans recognised Bahaulla?
Why have only 25% recognised Muhammad, even after 1400 years of the message being out there?

In reality, most humans now have the critical faculties to recognise superstitious nonsense. Religion mostly only survives through childhood indoctrination, and through that small proportion of people who struggle with reality for one reason or another.

 

[KWED]

No one forces anyone to join our religion. If people don’t like it’s laws then don’t join. Simple as that. Why join a religion you are against. It’s common sense not to join.

"No one forces anyone to join the White Supremacist movement. If people don't like its ideas and rules, don't join".

Do you think that is a good argument for not challenging or condemning white supremacism?

 

[KWED]

I’ve been in this religion for 45 years and because of it have a happy and stable life. As soon as I discovered Who Baha’u’llah was I embraced His Cause with joy and happiness. Those who are unaware of the Source of this Faith will be unable to appreciate its significance.

Im filled with joy and happiness and indescribable inner peace and contentment each day because of Baha’u’llah. I thank God that I have been made worthy to accept this wonderful Cause while the world is still fast asleep and unaware of its greatness.

This is a blessing that I could never be truly grateful for even if I were to give thanks to God for ‘a thousand ages and centuries’.

I understand you feel strongly about these issues and others but our loyalty is to Baha’u’llah as we believe His Words are from God while people make errors of judgement and seem to be making up what’s right and wrong, good and bad and moral and immoral along the way without having any real idea.

So if you want to believe homosexuality is moral then that’s your business just don’t try and force me to accept your views because I believe what Baha’u’llah said is true and have all my life believed it to be immoral as a catholic and when I was an atheist. But I have homosexual friends and my beliefs don’t cause me to be unkind to them. On the contrary they accept me as their friend and don’t bully me to accept their beliefs unlike people here.

It’s disgraceful that we are being bullied here to turn against our own religion and Prophet because of fanatics who want to force us to accept their views. We don’t come here condemning people for not accepting Baha’u’llah, that is their belief so we respect that.

And so we move on to claims of faux victimhood.
It's disgraceful that people should point out and challenge the homophobic intolerance in Bahai teachings. The intolerance itself is fine because its part of your beliefs.

This argument just beggars belief.

 

[KWED]

The main reason I use the quotes is that they say ‘exactly’ what I want to say. I can try and paraphrase to make it easier.

Bahai scripture rarely says anything "exactly". It is usually a lot of vague platitudes dressed up in a faux medieval idiom.
And you still avoided my question!

 

[KWED]

Those are your words not mine.

Yes they are. I used them to illustrate the flaw in your argument.

God disapproves of homosexuality but still loves all humanity. Just because a father doesn’t approve of the behaviour of his child doesn’t mean he hates it or is prejudiced against it.

If god genuinely loves all of humanity, he would accept them as they are. A father who tries to "cure" his child's homosexuality through conversion therapy is a monster.

Parents disciplining their children doesn’t mean they hate or don’t love them. God is as a loving father Who blesses us but on occasion disciplines us. Can you not see the common sense in that?

Why would a parent "discipline" a child for being gay? That makes zero sense. Especially as it is god who creates people gay.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Then I asked him if he still was in contact with them. Because it would be interesting to know how they are doing. And if they are still gay or have been "healed" of their condition.

Thanks for explaining the context CG

 

[Dawnofhope]

It's your religion. It has a belief and a law that can't be changed, that lots of people today don't believe is right. Baha'is are very supportive of so many of the changes going on in society, but to let gays be gays and to let them get married isn't one of them. Is it society that is wrong or the Baha'i Faith? From your perspective it is us, the "liberal", decadent, society that has gone too far with their lusts and passions.

That is a reasonable summary.

 

[KWED]

I believe in equality but men and women have different ‘roles’ in life.

Apart from the biological differences in the reproductive cycle, what do you think those "different roles" are?

So I believe in people of the opposite sex getting married and having kids.

But why are you opposed to couples of the same sex doing it? (Other than "cuz god sez", of course)

 

[Sheldon]

If an organisation refuses to admit people because they are gay, they are breaking discrimination law.

This occurred to me as well, homophobic discrimination isn't just immoral, it does in fact break anti-discrimination laws in several countries. Like the couple who ran a B&B and refused a room to a gay couple, on the basis they were Christians and it was their home. They can of course choose who comes into their home, but they can't single out gay people and refuse to let them into their B&B solely on the basis they are gay, as they found out to their cost.

I wonder if the Bahai religious leaders understand the possible legal ramifications of they bigoted homophobic doctrine. Lets hope they find out soon, where reason fails, a sharp lesson from the law often succeeds. One is reminded of the openly racist bigotry of the Mormon church, that they were forced to abandon.

Of course once it is forced on them, followers and adherents often re-write history, and gush praise on their religion for their decency and forward thinking, or even falsely claim it was at the vanguard of such change. As Christians so often do with the abolitionist movement, as if every single one of the southern slave owners were not Christians who cited the bible and Exodus 21 to justify slavery. Religions are filled with irony, but I often find many theists to be irony impaired.

 

[Sheldon]

God condemns the act not the people.

Condemning the act is condemning the people, as being gay is as much a part of who they are as being straight for those who happen to be born that way. If someone told you you had to leave the church because being straight was unnatural and immoral and against god, or you have only gay sex or no sex, would you feel loved and respected? The idea is preposterous.

Also if a deity hates the act why do you believe that deity created people who are gay, after all Bahai's have repeatedly claimed a deity created everything.

If you read His Words you will know when He condemns someone. He has condemned Kings and religious leaders for killing innocent people but as to behaviour He condemns the acts.

Comparing murder to two consenting adults having sex is a spectacularly stupid analogy. Oh and I would blame the condemn the murderer as well as the act, since it was a choice, being gay is not a choice, it is part of why people are.

That’s why Baha’is can be temporarily expelled if they discriminate against anyone.

What a ludicrous claim, discrimination is written into their superstition. We've seen it quoted here, only gay people are being asked to deny who they are, and not have sex, or marry.

So if I continually abused a homosexual I would firstly be told a couple of times that it’s wrong and if I persisted I would be disciplined and banned from functions could be for years.

So you can openly discriminate, but some types of verbal abuse is forbidden. FYI telling someone they are wrong, immoral evil and a sexual aberration that shout be purged, is abusive. Just ask any gay poster here, that is if you have any interest in the truth, rather than blind adherence to deeply pernicious homophobic doctrine.

 

[KWED]

For example I was born a catholic

No you weren't. You were indoctrinated into Catholicism as a child.

and adored Jesus when I was a kid.

Of course you did. You were fed positive images and told you must love him. It was the expected outcome.

And I adore Muhammad too now and the brilliant Quran.

And yet Muhammad was quite an immoral figure by today's standards. And the Quran contains a fair bit of violence, intolerance and discrimination. It is also pretty turgid, derivative and repetitive as a piece of literature. You only think it is brilliant because you are expected to.

Through education we try and overcome our weaknesses and prejudices. But it takes time.

What educational methods are being used to overcome Bahaism's prejudice against homosexuals?

 

[Sheldon]

I believe in equality

No you don't, or you wouldn't be actively discriminating against gay people.

men and women have different ‘roles’ in life.

Oh dear, beyond their biological differences they can choose whatever roles they like, another openly discriminatory claim using a tried old gender stereotype. .

That doesn’t mean they are not equal.

If anyone tries to tell women or men this, it means they are not treating them equally, especially if they say this to children.

A woman bears children whereas a man cannot.

So what?

Does this mean nature is discriminating against men? Equality does not mean ‘sameness’.

Nature is insentient, humans are not, discrimination involves a choice, like your religion's choice to openly discriminate against gay people.

So I believe in people of the opposite sex getting married and having kids.

Beehive in it? You mean you and your religion expel anyone who deviates from this, by openly discriminating against them.

 

[Sheldon]

Yes, as the 19 fay feast has a three fold function, Spiritual Devotion, Administrative section and then the social part.

It can be they may attend both the social and devotional parts, but they would have to leave during the Administrative section.

All other functions apart from the elections, they could also attend.

Loss of voting rights is an Administrative sanction, with deep spiritual implications, as Baha'u'llah has made it a right for a Baha'i to vote in that process.

Regards Tony

Can an openly gay married couple attend? Or does the feat also openly discriminate against them?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's from the Bible. If "hate" is not the best interpretation of the Hebrew word, then fine. But I think the word would still mean that God dislikes those things.

There are quite a few writings given by Baha'u'llah that explain when those types of words are used, they are for our benefit to learn.

God is above all attributes and our compression.

This is a thought about what a veil our knowledge can become.

". . . If, then, the pursuit of knowledge lead to the beauty of Him Who is the Object of all Knowledge, how excellent that goal; but if not, a mere drop will perhaps shut a man off from flooding grace, for with learning cometh arrogance and pride, and it bringeth on error and indifference to God . . . If learning be not a means of access to Him, the Most Manifest, it is nothing but evident loss."

Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 110

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

God has made His Will known to all men, through the Messenger of God.

No he hasn't, no deity has made anything known to me, I am a man, ipso facto your claim is false.

Even though adherents make this claim of course, but even they have failed to communicate any knowledge to support it, only subjective bias, and woo woo superstition.