Homosexuality and religious.

[Sheldon]

I think it’s like a 6th sense that humans have to be able to recognise the Prophets of God.

Is that why there are countless gods and prophets, and religions, and all contradicting each other and denying the prophets and deities of the others? What a truly preposterous claim, what about atheists, I'm sensing yet another no true Scotsman fallacy is on the way.

 

[Sheldon]

No one forces anyone to join our religion. If people don’t like it’s laws then don’t join. Simple as that. Why join a religion you are against. It’s common sense not to join.

Well personally you can keep it, but you are ignoring the fact that your religion is actively stopping people who are openly gay and married from joining, even expelling them if they behave according to their nature, which harms no one, there is a big difference. I'm sure the KKK could make the same claim, but it wouldn't make their bigotry any less immoral. No one is forced to join their religious organisation either, but some of course would be actively prevented.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can an openly gay married couple attend? Or does the feat also openly discriminate against them?

They could attend the devotional and the social part, but not the administrative part.

It is up to the Local Spiritual Assembly to decide upon this. I know some Assemblies make feasts for Baha'i only, as these days there is a lot of administive tasks to complete. The trick for an assembly is to find a balance between the 3 aspects. So It is not easy if people that are not Baha'i with administrative rights attend, that would have to go out for an hour or so!

I personally see it would be best not to invite to the 19 day feast, as ample other devotional and social gatherings are already held.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is that why there are countless gods and prophets, and religions, and all contradicting each other and denying the prophets and deities of the others? What a truly preposterous claim, what about atheists, I'm sensing yet another no true Scotsman fallacy is on the way.

Made known and accepting may be two different things.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

I’ve been in this religion for 45 years and because of it have a happy and stable life. As soon as I discovered Who Baha’u’llah was I embraced His Cause with joy and happiness.

Even though it is openly homophobic, but then if you're not gay why worry about how it treats gay people right?

 

[Sheldon]

They could attend the devotional and the social part, but not the administrative part.

As members of your religion? Are you sure, only we have been told gay people who are openly living as a gay married couple are expelled because of it.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
Is that why there are countless gods and prophets, and religions, and all contradicting each other and denying the prophets and deities of the others? What a truly preposterous claim, what about atheists, I'm sensing yet another no true Scotsman fallacy is on the way.

Made known and accepting may be two different things.

Regards Tony

....and there it is... No deity has made anything known to me, and no human as communicate any knowledge about any deity, only subjective beliefs.

 

[Sheldon]

I gave you a link. Did you not read it?

Earthquakes aren't genetic.

Oh you have evidence that the entire scientific world is unaware of then, that being gay is genetic? Or you just slipped a false equivalence fallacy in there, hoping no one would notice and challenge it.

 

[Jedster]

But the writings, they believe, came from God. They can't be in error. Except the old stuff that God said was without error in the past religions. Those things are now in error.

Of course, they do.
My own opinion that these writings come from trying express the awe of just being. Seeing the vastness of the skies(heavens) and an answer to 'where did we come from'.
I remember as a child I was taught that I must love God with all my heart, mind etc(If memory serves that was even mentioned in prayers.) ETA The Shema
So, I asked my teachers if they have seen God, no one answered in the affirmative. In fact, I heard the phrase, which is often written here, that "God is unknowable".

I could not see how I could love something I could not know.

 

[Sheldon]

If a gay couple wants to be part of the Baha'i community, including our core activities and just hanging out in each other's home, there is no problem. If they wish to enrol as Baha'is and have full administrative rights AND continue to cohabit as a same sex couple, they will most likely be disappointed.

Because your religion openly discriminates against gay people, with homophobic bigotry. This doesn't bother you? I guess as an atheist I am not bound by any doctrine or dogma, and am free to just care more about how people are treated.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

....and there it is... No deity has made anything known to me, and no human as communicate any knowledge about any deity, only subjective beliefs.

You are well aware, you have been responding to what God offered in Law and many other points in many threads, that you do not attribute that to God, is again not because you were not made aware, it is your own thoughts that have become the veil.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

Yes. There is no difference in the treatment of gay couples and heterosexual unmarried couples cohabiting As both are flagrantly and publically breaking Baha'i laws, it forces the assembly to act.

I am not sure that's is true, since straight couples can marry if they want to, the religion forbids this for gay people, no? This to me is the very definition of discrimination, religions have of course tried to ringfence such prejudices for millennia, so no new news for me here, but trying to promote a religion as a modern more inclusive and equal belief that promotes love and equality, then behaving in a way that includes some of the same old prejudices that derive from human intolerance and ignorance, is something of an own goal.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As members of your religion? Are you sure, only we have been told gay people who are openly living as a gay married couple are expelled because of it.

I have not been on an assembly for over 30 years, I have been remote. So I may be rusty with the laws.

If they are Baha'i with voting rights removed, then no they can not attend a feast, but other functions like Holy days they can.

If they are not Baha'i, then it is possible, but as I suggested, many Assemblies may no longer share an invitation, as it is difficult on the people attending.

There may be only One Baha'i posting here that is on an Assembly. They may offer an input.

regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

You are well aware, you have been responding to what God offered in Law

No and no, you're simply repeating your subjective opinion, this is not knowledge imparted to me by any deity or prophet via a sixth sense for that purpose, which is what was claimed.

that you do not attribute that to God, is again not because you were not made aware,

Again you are misrepresenting the claim, no deity or prophet has made me aware of anything. Some people have made some subjective claims, it was originally claimed, all humans possess a sixth sense to know that it was from a prophet, this is roundly refuted by there being conflicting prophets peddling conflicting deities, and lots of them. Not to mention the existence of atheism. Implying bias on my part cannot be objectively defended, and as you made the claim it is a clear and irrational no true Scotsman fallacy.

it is your own thoughts that have become the veil.

That's just your irrational bias, this typifies your spiel sadly, you are incapable of rational debate, and just endlessly espouse irrational claims and platitudes. I wish I could soften that for you, but it is an inescapable fact. Implying I am biased is just risible, since you are the one suggesting your deity is real, yet offering nothing that any of the other religions don't have. They have prophets as well, and the idea all humans have a sixth sense for detecting this is of course utterly refuted by the sheer number of competing prophets and religions, whose adherents all deny one another.

Can you offer anything beyond trite platitudes or irrelevant quotes from what you choose to believe is a prophet, something tangible that approaches objective evidence or empirical evidence to remotely evidence a deity of any kind, or even that one is possible at all? Something no other religion offers even?

 

[Sheldon]

I have not been on an assembly for over 30 years, I have been remote. So I may be rusty with the laws.

If they are Baha'i with voting rights removed, then no they can not attend a feast, but other functions like Holy days they can.

If they are not Baha'i, then it is possible, but as I suggested, many Assemblies may no longer share an invitation, as it is difficult on the people attending.

There may be only One Baha'i posting here that is on an Assembly. They may offer an input.

regards Tony

Well we have already been told that openly gay married couples would be expelled from the religion. Does this kind of discrimination not bother you, or cause you pause to question at least that part of the doctrine?

You see the idea it is all the infallible word of a deity via a prophet is a harmful idea, since this alleged prophet is a fallible evolved human, capable of prejudice and bigotry, and when you ringfence everything they say as infallible it must inevitably mean adherents cling to pernicious beliefs like the kind we have seen several Bahai's espouse in this thread.

 

[Sheldon]

God can change any laws, so what was once wrong is now right.

So your deity can be wrong, and then correct the error? Like evolved human apes then really?

 

[Sheldon]

That's if they find out about it. I could have a man living in my house and they'd never know. Nobody would ever know given the location of my property and house.... The most hidden of the hidden. Nobody ever comes in and nobody ever goes out, except me once a week for groceries and mail...

I hope you can see what this thread is doing to me.

Take a moment and imagine what it has done to any gay people unfortunate enough to have read it. Your beliefs, including your adherence to pernicious homophobic doctrine, is a choice, they cannot choose to stop being gay, anymore than you or I could choose to stop being heterosexual.

Imagine how they feel reading the vile things some adherents of your religion have written about them here, including you of course.

 

[Sheldon]

Maybe some gay people would join just to wind them up?
But the point is about having the right to do something, even if you don't exercise it.

Or more pointedly perhaps being openly denied that right, and by a religion peddling itself as promoting love, equality and tolerance.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So your deity can be wrong, and then correct the error? Like evolved human apes then really?

I know know why I had this profile on my happy no view list. I switched it off for a while, never used to use it, but just have to these days.

You really make no effort to understand this in any way shape or form, or purposely sling the underhanded intended twists.

Goodbye Sheldon.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

I know know why I had this profile on my happy no view list. I switched it off for a while, never used to use it, but just have to these days.

You really make no effort to understand this in any way shape or form, or purposely sling the underhanded intended twists.

Goodbye Sheldon.

Regards Tony

I am under no obligation to see your claims the way you choose to, I asked for clarification and you run away, and insult me, that says it all really. You really don't see how blinkered you have become, and that you are incapable of any rational thought that doesn't bend to this belief you hold.