Homosexuality and religious.

[Sheldon]

Is the point of religion to make one 'happy'?

A lot of theists imply it's a strong motivator, pleasant myths are easier to digest that unpleasant truths.

 

[Sheldon]

But every Baha'i person could perfectly easily understand how immutable sexual orientation really is.

If only they could find a prophet who wasn't a vile homophobe, they must be out there, given how many people claim to be a conduit to a deity.

 

[Sheldon]

"if I were commanded to change my sexual orientation, how would I do it, could I even accomplish it?"

No I couldn't, and no I don't know of any way I could accomplish it. Then again as an atheist I don't feel the need to blindly follow bigoted religious doctrine. I actually raised this very point earlier in this thread as well.

If someone demonstrated one of my beliefs was unevidenced superstition, I'd abandon it right then right there, let alone if it were pernicious. If someone told me I as an evil unnatural sexual aberration, I'll be honest that'd be hard to take.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thanks. But God did approve of killing them in the Bible.

The laws of past ages were very harsh to protect the community. Laws are there to act as a deterrent. Throughout history in the Torah, the Gospels, the Quran and Baha’i Writings, homosexuality is condemned.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you still keep in contact with them?

That was many years ago. I haven’t any idea if they are still around.

 

[loverofhumanity]

loverofhumanity is that old? Or maybe this is what I was talking about...




Then I asked him if he still was in contact with them. Because it would be interesting to know how they are doing. And if they are still gay or have been "healed" of their condition.

I really don’t think of them that way. I’d love to meet them if they are still alive. To me they were great friends. I’m not interested in their private life.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The laws of past ages were very harsh to protect the community. Laws are there to act as a deterrent. Throughout history in the Torah, the Gospels, the Quran and Baha’i Writings, homosexuality is condemned.

Because of ignorance. Knowledge is the antidote to ignorance, but if you are addicted to ignorance, well, I suppose, carry on.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Condemning the act is condemning the people, as being gay is as much a part of who they are as being straight for those who happen to be born that way. If someone told you you had to leave the church because being straight was unnatural and immoral and against god, or you have only gay sex or no sex, would you feel loved and respected? The idea is preposterous.

Also if a deity hates the act why do you believe that deity created people who are gay, after all Bahai's have repeatedly claimed a deity created everything.



Comparing murder to two consenting adults having sex is a spectacularly stupid analogy. Oh and I would blame the condemn the murderer as well as the act, since it was a choice, being gay is not a choice, it is part of why people are.


What a ludicrous claim, discrimination is written into their superstition. We've seen it quoted here, only gay people are being asked to deny who they are, and not have sex, or marry.



So you can openly discriminate, but some types of verbal abuse is forbidden. FYI telling someone they are wrong, immoral evil and a sexual aberration that shout be purged, is abusive. Just ask any gay poster here, that is if you have any interest in the truth, rather than blind adherence to deeply pernicious homophobic doctrine.

When one joins the Baha’i Faith it is because they choose to do so. If they are against our laws then don’t join. I don’t serve alcohol in my home. If people don’t like that then they can go where drinks are sold and served. We have our laws. You don’t like them you don’t join. But don’t bully us to accept you views.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No you weren't. You were indoctrinated into Catholicism as a child.

Of course you did. You were fed positive images and told you must love him. It was the expected outcome.

And yet Muhammad was quite an immoral figure by today's standards. And the Quran contains a fair bit of violence, intolerance and discrimination. It is also pretty turgid, derivative and repetitive as a pice of literature. You only think it is brilliant because you are expected to.

What educational methods are being used to overcome Bahaism's prejudice against homosexuals?

Lol.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No you don't, or you wouldn't be actively discriminating against gay people.



Oh dear, beyond their biological differences they can choose whatever roles they like, another openly discriminatory claim using a tried old gender stereotype. .



If anyone tries to tell women or men this, it means they are not treating them equally, especially if they say this to children.



So what?



Nature is insentient, humans are not, discrimination involves a choice, like your religion's choice to openly discriminate against gay people.



Beehive in it? You mean you and your religion expel anyone who deviates from this, by openly discriminating against them.

That’s your understanding. I believe otherwise.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Even though it is openly homophobic, but then if you're not gay why worry about how it treats gay people right?

It’s not an issue for me. A person to me is a person and I try to see good in everyone.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Actually, it would be much easier on Bahais(and other religions) if their writings were not believed to be inerrant. Then they could pick the parts that they believed in.

Agreed. And they could add ideas not included in the writings. But what we are describing is giving up faith in received ideas and substituting one's own morals and judgments, which is exactly what every skeptic does. He either has never worn the straight-jacket of faith, or has Houdini'ed out of it. These are my thoughts when I read the Baha'i here. Use your own judgment and just get rid of the ugly parts of this doctrine. Better yet, reduce it all to a desire that we all get along without any outside influence of so-called messengers, who really add nothing but flowery prose. One can still be a theist and hold a god belief, but separate it from all scripture and dogma, and make it a natural religion. It wouldn't be far from humanism at that point, the difference being that the humanist doesn't call the mystery of existence and its source God.

Well then can't the UHJ just declare that homosexuality is no longer condemned and is recognized as a moral norm, and no longer sees gays in a negative way?

Only if they are willing to substitute reason and empathy for received dogma. That may not be an option. Of course, that is what humanism advises - doing just that.

You can count on definite opposition from me whenever I read what I believe to be prejudicial religious claptrap like I've seen in this thread from some Baha'i followers, or similar ramblings from Christians and other Abrahamic theists in other threads. As far as I'm concerned, there is absolutely no excuse for overlooking that kind of belief, let alone adhering to such a belief, in this day and age.

Good for you! This is where reason and empathy take any of us.

You really can't bring yourself to answer a straight question, can you?

1. If evidence showed that Bahaism is made up, would you accept it is made up, or would you still believe?
2. Is science showed that homosexuality was harmless and beneficial, would you still insist that it is evil and immoral?

My approach to this impasse has become to just answer the question for them, and offer them a chance to disagree if they do. In this case, his answers if he were insightful and honest very likely would be yes and no respectively. Why? First, if his answers were otherwise, he would provide them rather than deflect from them. Second, he's a faith-based thinker, not an empiricist. He doesn't come to his beliefs using evidence and he can't be budged from them even when shown contradictory evidence, such is faith.

If a gay couple wants to be part of the Baha'i community, including our core activities and just hanging out in each other's home, there is no problem. If they wish to enroll as Baha'is and have full administrative rights AND continue to cohabit as a same sex couple, they will most likely be disappointed.

And you (and other Baha'i) don't see that as discrimination (differential treatment). Incidentally, did the gay couple in the provided video attempt to obtain administrative rights or were they simply openly gay adherents? And if the former, is that why they were rejected by the faith -because they wanted administrative rights, or was it because they were openly gay.

There is no difference in the treatment of gay couples and heterosexual unmarried couples cohabiting As both are flagrantly and publically breaking Baha'i laws, it forces the assembly to act.

What you are saying is that there is no increased penalty if a fornicator is also gay. If they are both married couples, will they still be treated equally?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

This is the issue one has when they embrace Faith in God. God is the source of all wisdom, then there is wisdom in the given Law. This is Faith 101! ... If God gives a law, there is wisdom in that law, even if we are not yet to see that wisdom.

This is the problem with faith. One assumes that this deity exists and that these are its thoughts by faith, and then calls uncritically living by them wisdom. The admonition that homosexuality is harmful is believed despite the absence of supporting evidence, despite the existence of contradictory evidence, and is called wisdom. We can do better than that by returning to the application of reason to evidence and one's natural moral intuitions. THAT'S wisdom, where wisdom is defined as knowledge that leads to happy living. Intelligence is knowing how to get what you want, and wisdom is knowing what to want to find lasting happiness, or at least to avoid unforced errors that lead to needless suffering in the form of rejection, loneliness, shame, guilt, or regret not to mention homelessness and poverty. Is homophobia wisdom? Of course not. It's a source of division and unhappiness for both the homophobe and homosexual. Look at the grief holding that attitude is causing for the Baha'i posting here. Their lives would be just that much more happy and peaceful without it.

An example in this world is that not to embrace that wisdom, is like the rebellion of a child against the parent, the child wants their way and not that of the parent, unaware of the danger of that choice.

There is no wisdom in equating an adult with a child such that independent thought is defined as rebellion. My tradition, humanism, sees adults as moral agents whose morality comes from the application of reason to the natural moral intuitions of empathetic people. They are not children to be scolded for independent thought, but rather, are seen as autonomous citizens commissioned by empathy to make the world a better place for ALL tolerant and cooperative members of society. THAT'S wisdom. Belief by faith including the belief that homosexuals are in any sense defective is not wisdom. Nor is it love.

If one makes a video on it, then that already tells me their opinion was more important than the whole.

They made a video because the religion told them that they were unacceptable, which is the religion saying that the religion's image is more important than they are as they are. Look at the Baha'i quote from trailblazer, which contains, "to determine whether the immoral conduct is open and scandalous and can bring the name of the Faith into disrepute, in which case the Assembly must take action." This isn't love or wisdom.

God does not alter our choices

Have you ever noticed that God always make the same choice that godless nature would make? He lets us sin. He gives is free will and doesn't interfere with the exercise thereof. He will not cure disease. His holy commands sound human and are in words. We don't see miracles. Prayer has no effect except placebo (psychological). And on it goes. Shouldn't at least one of these not be the case if there is an interventionalist creator, if not all of them?

You are well aware, you have been responding to what God offered in Law and many other points in many threads, that you do not attribute that to God, is again not because you were not made aware, it is your own thoughts that have become the veil.

I see it the other way around. Faith is the veil, and the veil is a faith-based confirmation bias. His thoughts are what protect him from that.

God does not hate

Here's what faith does. Of course the deity doesn't hate. It perfectly imitates nonexistence. But because you believe that it exists and cannot hate, whatever it allegedly says and does is defined as loving. Evidence is THEN evaluated in that light, so of course homophobia mist be loving if it's the opinion of a good god. He only wants what best for homosexuals, so this must be best. Absent faith, you would do that in the reverse order. You would examine the doctrine, recognize using your own natural moral faculties that homophobia is hateful and destructive, and conclude that this god doesn't sound too loving. Your opinion would be a conclusion derived from evidence, not a premise based in faith and in contradiction to the evidence.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I am like a sinking ship doing everything I can to stay afloat.

Sorry to read that. I would advise you to consider whether this is the best place for you now, but I'm sure you have, and trust your judgment. You seem to need community now, and unlike many of your peers, you seem pretty impervious to the criticisms directed at you. I hope your faith is helpful to you through this transition.

Gay people are already allowed full participation in Baha'i activities. Furthermore, what people do behind closed doors is their own business.

"When a person wishes to join the Faith and it is generally known that he has a problem such as drinking, homosexuality, taking drugs, adultery, etc., he should be told in a patient and loving way of the Bahá'í teachings on these matters. If it is later discovered that a believer is violating Bahá'í standards, it is the duty of the Assembly to determine whether the immoral conduct is open and scandalous and can bring the name of the Faith into disrepute, in which case the Assembly must take action to counsel the believer and require him to make every effort to mend his ways. If he fails to rectify his conduct in spite of repeated warnings, sanctions should be imposed. Assemblies, of course, must exercise care not to pry into the private lives of the believers to ensure that they are behaving properly."

Your citation contradicts both of your claims. They are not permitted full participation according to the report of the Baha'i here including this quote, and I'm guessing that the sex that couple was shunned for having occurred behind closed doors.

a reasonable person relies upon faith and evidence, IF he wants to believe.

A reasonable person does not believe by faith. Nor does a critical thinker want to believe anything other than what is demonstrably correct, belief in which not only requires no faith, but is undermined by insufficiently justified belief..

There will never be an actual God coming forth, only Messengers of God who are Representatives of God.

Of course not. See above to TransmutingSoul on the deity that is indistinguishable from the nonexistent.

"How ignorant therefore the thought that God who created man, educated and nurtured him, surrounded him with all blessings, made the sun and all phenomenal existence for his benefit, bestowed upon him tenderness and kindness, and then did not love him. This is palpable ignorance, for no matter to what religion a man belongs even though he be an atheist or materialist nevertheless God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light."

I'd call the ignorance the belief by faith in such a deity, one that has no manifestations except a book that either of us could have written. Nature appears to be up to it without intelligent supervision, which might be why we never see this deity and have to be told about how much it doesn't do, like present itself or affect anything.

there is no scientific evidence that people are born gay.

Actually, there is, but the evidence suggests that genetics is only part of the story. From Homosexual orientation in twins: a report on 61 pairs and three triplet sets - PubMed (nih.gov)

"Thirty-eight pairs of monozygotic twins (34 male pairs and 4 female pairs) were found to have a concordance rate of 65.8% for homosexual orientation. Twenty-three pairs of dizygotic twins were found to have a concordance rate of 30.4% for homosexual orientation. In addition, three sets of triplets were obtained. Two sets contained a pair of monozygotic twins concordant for sexual orientation with the third triplet dizygotic and discordant for homosexual orientation. A third triplet set was monozygotic with all three concordant for homosexual orientation. These findings are interpreted as supporting the argument for a biological basis in sexual orientation."

Are you good interpreting these kinds of statements? Can you see why they indicate a genetic component to homosexuality? The study would be more useful if the monozygotic (identical) twins were raised in different households, which would significantly reduce the environmental influence, especially if they were raised in different cultures. Of course, it is irrelevant to the morality issue.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

No one forces anyone to join our religion. If people don’t like it’s laws then don’t join. Simple as that. Why join a religion you are against. It’s common sense not to join.

You mean why join a religion that is against you. I agree. People want to do it nevertheless - as much a mystery to me as it is to you. But then, we have Log Cabin (gay) Republicans on the Christian side.

I’ve been in this religion for 45 years and because of it have a happy and stable life.

Do you think your religion is the reason? You're a nice guy who wants to avoid confrontation and be friendly to all. You couldn't be that without a religion? I'm happy and have a stable life as well without religion.

I have homosexual friends and my beliefs don’t cause me to be unkind to them. On the contrary they accept me as their friend

Do they know that you worship a god that finds them unacceptable (by their definition, not yours, which is probably that your god loves and accepts everybody)? If they do, they respect you less for it and don't believe that you will ever accept them whatever you say. If they don't, their opinion of you will change if they do.

It’s disgraceful that we are being bullied here to turn against our own religion and Prophet because of fanatics who want to force us to accept their views.

You are being to examine your beliefs. Here's Buddha on examining beliefs:

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conductive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." - Buddha

Was that bullying, too? Incidentally, that guy would have made a great humanist. He enshrined both reason and utilitarian ethics in that statement.

The main reason I use the quotes is that they say ‘exactly’ what I want to say. I can try and paraphrase to make it easier.

I'm with the others. I generally don't read such citations. I'm sorry if this seems disrespectful, but they read like Hallmarks - breezy exhortative language with no substance or insight. I doubt I'll ever be quoting Bahaullah as a source of wisdom or insight like I just did Buddha. Why? Because it reads as fluff to me.

Nor do I assume that the adherents citing them understand them as I would. Likewise with orphan links intended to substitute for an argument. If the poster can't or won't paraphrase the same argument himself in a few words, then he probably doesn't really understand it, and when the link is refuted, you often get, "That's not the part I meant" or "That's not what it said to me."

God disapproves of homosexuality but still loves all humanity. Just because a father doesn’t approve of the behaviour of his child doesn’t mean he hates it or is prejudiced against it.

You may believe that, but you'd do well to understand how it reads to others.

God is as a loving father Who blesses us but on occasion disciplines us. Can you not see the common sense in that?

Where's the discipline part? As I've noted already, this god is indistinguishable from nonexistent. All I see are human beings chastising other human beings in the name of an absentee deity.

I believe in equality but men and women have different ‘roles’ in life. That doesn’t mean they are not equal. A woman bears children whereas a man cannot. Does this mean nature is discriminating against men? Equality does not mean ‘sameness’. So I believe in people of the opposite sex getting married and having kids.

You don't also believe that. You believe that exclusively, or only allow for a limited number of alternatives such as living alone or with parents or roommates. Other kinds of families are not acceptable

Equality is not equity. Sure, you equally grant to all the right to all to marry the opposite sex and have and raise children.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

So your deity can be wrong, and then correct the error? Like evolved human apes then really?

According to certain verses in the Bible, God does not change his mind, and herein lies yet another contradiction in the Bible. For instance, Numbers 23:19 says, "God is not a human being, and he will not lie. He is not a human, and he does not change his mind. What he says he will do, he does. What he promises, he makes come true." And Malachi 3:6 says, "I the Lord do not change. So you descendants of Jacob have not been destroyed." Furthermore, 1 Samuel 15:29 says, "The Lord is the Eternal One of Israel. He does not lie or change his mind. He is not a human being, so he does not change his mind.” However, there are multiple scriptures which clearly state that God does, in fact, change his mind, such as Amos 7:3; 6; Exodus 32:14; Jeremiah 18:10; 26:3, and Jonah 3:10.

There are also scriptures which clearly state that God has regrets (Genesis 6:6-7; 1 Samuel 15:11; 2 Samuel:24:16; Jeremiah 42:10) and that he relented from the disasters that he had decided to bring down upon his own people as punishment for their transgressions against him (Jeremiah 26:13, 1 Chronicles 21:15, Joel 2:13). The last three scriptures I cited clearly coincide with Isaiah 45:7 NIV, which says, "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things." The New King James Version uses the word 'calamity' instead of disaster and the King James Version uses the word 'evil' instead of disaster or calamity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Also "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both".
So you believe that practicing homosexuals should be punished.

Well, he was wrong there. Much of sharia is derived from the sunnah, which is the example of Muhammad. Homosexuals are sentenced to death because Muhammed sentences them to death. Same with stoning adulterers.

The Quran says they should be punished. Muhammad sentenced them to death. Muhammad was god's infallible messenger. Therefore god approves of killing homosexuals.
QED.

All the Holy Books from the Torah, Gospels, Quran and Baha’i Writings all condemn homosexuality. As to that verse it is in a chapter called ‘Women’ and no specific punishment is mentioned. In those verses 4-15 all immoral sexual is condemned.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What's that supposed to mean? Do you think gay people generally make unwanted advances to other men/women?

He told his gay friend in front of me not to make any advances towards me as I was not gay. That’s what was said.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Is the point of religion to make one 'happy'?

Happiness comes as a result of obeying and believing in God but nobody is forced against their will to believe is what I’m saying.

 

[Vinayaka]

Happiness comes as a result of obeying and believing in God but nobody is forced against their will to believe is what I’m saying.

So all those poor people out there who don't believe in God are unhappy? It seems to me that you might be wrong about that. Just a guess.