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Homosexuality and religious.

Sheldon

Veteran Member
If I sent a spam email to every address on the internet stating that I was the reincarnation of Alexander the Great, does the fact that I have "made it known" (by your argument) mean that anyone should be expected to accept it?

Or that you have communicated any knowledge of course.

God spoke to me last night and told me all religions are wrong. Now, god (by Tony's reasoning) has made his knowledge known to everyone, through me of course, but luckily he's cool with human conduits for deities. All I need do now, is flower up the lingo with some vapid platitudes.

Verily, I sayeth unto you, that until thou accepteth the word of god's truth, they shalt remain as blind as (a blind?) camel in a sand storm.

it's a work in progress...
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
So your deity can be wrong, and then correct the error? Like evolved human apes then really?
I think there's verses in the Bible that say that God's law will never change, and the laws are forever. Then comes Christianity and most all of the Bible laws no longer apply. I think Baha'is are stuck with this law for the full 1000 years of the Baha'i dispensation, because Baha'u'llah wrote something that got officially interpreted to mean that homosexuality is wrong.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I know know why I had this profile on my happy no view list. I switched it off for a while, never used to use it, but just have to these days.

You really make no effort to understand this in any way shape or form, or purposely sling the underhanded intended twists.

Goodbye Sheldon.

Regards Tony
It's a pretty simple concept.
God makes laws.
God is infallible.
Therefore those laws are perfect and cannot be improved on.
God changes laws.
Therefore his laws weren't perfect and can be improved upon.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I agree that some of our teachings are difficult for
I think one way of understanding others beliefs was described beautifully by Rumi.
The truth was a mirror in the hands of God. It fell, and broke into pieces. Everybody took a piece of it, and they looked at it and thought they had the truth..
So everyone's beliefs are the truth? Or no ones?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
But every Baha'i person could perfectly easily understand how immutable sexual orientation really is.

I confess, I've never had an honest answer from a heterosexual person to this thought experiment, but that doesn't mean they couldn't do it -- if they wanted to, if they really sought understanding.

And that thought experiment is simply to ask yourself, "if I were commanded to change my sexual orientation, how would I do it, could I even accomplish it?" I do not mean just to give in an do it with an individual of your own gender a time or two. I mean really to want a person of your own gender, for the rest of your life, and when seeing a member of the opposite gender (to which you are presently oriented) -- even naked -- to experience no desire, and perhaps even just a little revulsion.

And if they really, really thought about it, they could only answer, "I couldn't do it." And of course they couldn't. nobody expects that they could.

But it is what they expect of gay people like myself.
Indeed. I have long wanted to be bisexual. But I'm simply not sexually attracted to men. If it was at all possible, I would have been able to do it.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That would interest me as well.
I'm sure some Baha'is have reached out to gay Baha'is and have tried to make them feel wanted. But it sounds like some Baha'is report them. Then the Baha'i enforcers go out and investigate. Then is goes to LSA's and NSA's. And they get sanctioned, and many leave the Faith.

So, are there stories of Baha'is making efforts to show gay Baha'is that they are accepted and loved?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This is a thought about what a veil our knowledge can become.

". . . If, then, the pursuit of knowledge lead to the beauty of Him Who is the Object of all Knowledge, how excellent that goal; but if not, a mere drop will perhaps shut a man off from flooding grace, for with learning cometh arrogance and pride, and it bringeth on error and indifference to God . . . If learning be not a means of access to Him, the Most Manifest, it is nothing but evident loss."

Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 110
Human knowledge which is based upon selfish desire leads to nothing but arrogance and pride, vainglory and conceit, and selfish desire is the greatest veil between God and man.

“Know verily that Knowledge is of two kinds: Divine and Satanic. The one welleth out from the fountain of divine inspiration; the other is but a reflection of vain and obscure thoughts. The source of the former is God Himself; the motive-force of the latter the whisperings of selfish desire. The one is guided by the principle: “Fear ye God; God will teach you;” 29 the other is but a confirmation of the truth: “Knowledge is the most grievous veil between man and his Creator.” The former bringeth forth the fruit of patience, of longing desire, of true understanding, and love; whilst the latter can yield naught but arrogance, vainglory and conceit.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 69
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I would have thought that a religion for this age would communicate its message in the language of today's people. Why 17th Century English?

Shoghi Effendi was educated at Oxford in English so he could better translate the Writings from Persian and Arabic.

Shoghi Effendi saw that the Kings James English better reflected the flows of the original languages. As such, this style has become the standard for translations.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
But you ignore that yu have a choice. If you are a good person why do you need an ideology at all? Are you truly less of a spiritual being if you don;t identify as a Bahai? And you are stuck having to defend bigotry, regardless how you try to soften it.

I offer this from Baha'u'llah

"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded." (“Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, p. 286)

This is one of those counsels, so we will not find peace until we choose to abide by that and all the counsels.

Regards Tony
 

RAYYAN

Proud Muslim
It's a pretty simple concept.
God makes laws.
God is infallible.
Therefore those laws are perfect and cannot be improved on.
God changes laws.
Therefore his laws weren't perfect and can be improved upon.

Happy birthday.......
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Just let you know, I will not respond to you anymore.

Regards Tony

Just to let you know, debate is not possible by ignoring those who hold opposing views.

Then again, nothing you've posted suggests you ever had any interest in honest debate. Food for thought about people who claim to be 100% certain of their superstitious unevidenced beliefs, you want to peddle them apparently, but don't ever want them challenged.

Ignore - ignorance, odd how those words sound so similar?

Kind regards

Sheldon
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I think there's verses in the Bible that say that God's law will never change, and the laws are forever. Then comes Christianity and most all of the Bible laws no longer apply. I think Baha'is are stuck with this law for the full 1000 years of the Baha'i dispensation, because Baha'u'llah wrote something that got officially interpreted to mean that homosexuality is wrong.

This has been explained before CG. There are fundamental Laws that are the foundation that do not change. One such Law that has not changed is the topic we discuss.

Then there are the laws that are subject to change, like prayer and fasting etc

This just helps us understand how people do pervert the Word of God, yet think they are not.

Regards Tony
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Sheldon said:
So your deity can be wrong, and then correct the error? Like evolved human apes then really?
No, the Laws of God are changed in every age in order to suit the times people are living in.

So yes then, not no, you seem again to be using words while ignoring what they mean. Like Tony here:

God can change any laws, so what was once wrong is now right.

So (according to Tony) your deity can be wrong then, and change its mind, this is manifest in the claim.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Human knowledge which is based upon selfish desire leads to nothing but arrogance and pride, vainglory and conceit, and selfish desire is the greatest veil between God and man.

Then thank goodness for humanism - a very selfless ideology. It doesn't teach any vainglories or conceits, such as man being special in the eyes of a deity in whose image he was made.

I think that many of the religious call all self-interest apart from trying to get to heaven or getting others to heaven selfishness. This seems to be a strictly religious trope. Who else talks like that? Who else has an interest in people completely stifling their egos and being compliant and submissive? Who else praises meekness?

I like some of what you say so can you tell me where I can find those words of Buddha because I love them? I really appreciate those words you quoted.

Just copy them from my post. They're also all over the Internet. Some say they don't come from Buddha, but that wouldn't matter even if correct. If you loved them, it was the words and not their source that you loved.

Or, you can cite this, which is the same sentiment: "We must conduct research and then accept the results. If they don't stand up to experimentation, Buddha's own words must be rejected." - Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama.

But do you really love those words? They contradict some of your cherished beliefs. Nevertheless, if you do, you might want to change the attribution to anonymous:

"I sometimes quote myself and add anonymous after the quote." - anonymous.

It all hinges for me on the infallibility of Baha’u’llah.

Yes, it does.

Baha’is aren’t strong in their beliefs out of stubbornness or blindness but acute knowledge of the Station of a Manifestation of God. We know that a Manifestation is never, ever wrong.

"Acute knowledge of the Station of a Manifestation of God"? I have that as well, but my knowledge, which I'm sure differs from yours, is based in evidence.

Why do you think the Names Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, and so on have captivated peoples hearts and minds for thousands of years if They are just people?

Because people can do that.

So people oppose what they don’t understand and call it false.

People also oppose what they do understand when it is false.

You're making the same mistake as many other theists who confuse rejecting an idea with not understanding it or closed-mindedness. They assume that they are correct, and that the only thing holding others back from agreeing is not being willing or able to understand religious ideas. They are all actually very simple. How could anybody not understand them? Many have no clear meaning (vague), are internally incoherent (called mysteries that transcend understanding), or contradict other scriptures, but that is easy to see and understand, too. The problem is that the ones that are clear and not incoherent or contradicted elsewhere, like resurrection, are also not credible.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
To me it almost seems like the promises of good things in some after-life are used to get people to obey "God's" rules in the worldly life.

That brought this to mind.

"Bahá’u’lláh states that there are three barriers between man and God. He exhorts the believers to pass beyond these so that they may attain His Presence. The first barrier is attachment to the things of this world, the second is attachment to the rewards of the next world, and the third is attachment to the Kingdom of Names."

Adib Taherzadeh, The Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 20

Regards Tony
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
This has been explained before CG. There are fundamental Laws that are the foundation that do not change.

That's not an explanation, it is a subjective unevidenced claim. Certain behaviours would make societal existence difficult if not impossible, thus animals that have evolved to live in societal groups like human apes, have instinctively learned that certain behaviours are detrimental to their survival. Of course we also evolved a brain capable of problem solving, a distinct survival advantage.

One such Law that has not changed is the topic we discuss.

Rubbish, homophobia is now seen as pernicious ignorant and bigoted superstition, and the people who cling to it are in a growing minority.

Regards Sheldon
 
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