Homosexuality and religious.

[Vinayaka]

The laws of past ages were very harsh to protect the community. Laws are there to act as a deterrent. Throughout history in the Torah, the Gospels, the Quran and Baha’i Writings, homosexuality is condemned.

Protect the community from what exactly? Did they think penises are guns in disguise?

 

[Vinayaka]

It’s up to them if they are happy being a Baha’i with laws they disagree with. There’s no point in staying a Baha’i if you’re not happy.

There is at least one and maybe more very unhappy Baha'i here.

 

[Vinayaka]

When one joins the Baha’i Faith it is because they choose to do so. If they are against our laws then don’t join. I don’t serve alcohol in my home. If people don’t like that then they can go where drinks are sold and served. We have our laws. You don’t like them you don’t join. But don’t bully us to accept you views.

Who is bullying you? Please report any bullying to the mods, as it's against the rules of this forum.

 

[KWED]

God does not alter our choices, but warns us of the results of poor choices. This situation is foretold in quite some broader detail. You have your choices, as we all do.

That is the whole purpose of this existence, it is for our benefit, not God's.

If we could see what was to come, we would give a myriad lives to embrace what God offered.

Regards Tony

If this existence is for our benefit, and god created this existence, why did he include so much suffering? Especially that of infants and innocents?
Even if you claim we are warned (which we clearly aren't) then it's like giving a starving person some food, and then telling them there is some broken glass in it.
It's the work of a disturbed mind.

 

[Sheldon]

The laws of past ages were very harsh to protect the community. Laws are there to act as a deterrent. Throughout history in the Torah, the Gospels, the Quran and Baha’i Writings, homosexuality is condemned.

More vile homophobia, doubling down won't help, as people who happen to have been born gay are no threat to anyone. Though your earlier denials to fear homosexuality is now exposed as false by that claim.

 

[CG Didymus]

So do I, but I don't need to adopt a load of superstitious and intolerant nonsense to hold or express that idea.
Also, Bahaism doesn't accept some lifestyles - so it doesn't satisfy your beliefs.

The only reason I can see for anyone to join any religion is in the hope that the supernatural claims, like an afterlife for the chosen, are true.
There is nothing practical that any religion does that cannot be done without a belief in gods. It is only the desire for reward/fear of punishment that makes any sense.
Religious belief is essentially an act of self-interest.

To me it almost seems like the promises of good things in some after-life are used to get people to obey "God's" rules in the worldly life.

 

[KWED]

Homosexuality "My personal attitude is that it is a natural phenomenon"

That is somewhat shown with others species, yet questionable.

Why is it "questionable"? It is a demonstrable fact that homosexual behaviour is observed in many other species.

What's your personal attitude toward transgenders? It can't be shown natural with other species that I am aware of.

What's your attitude towards religion? It can't be shown in other species, therefore it is not natural? It that right?

 

[KWED]

A heterosexual couple living together under the laws of the land and then come Baha'i are seen to be already married.

But a gay couple in the same position would not be.
Therefore discrimination and prejudice.

 

[CG Didymus]

No one forces anyone to join our religion. If people don’t like it’s laws then don’t join. Simple as that. Why join a religion you are against. It’s common sense not to join.

Baha'is keep saying that, no one forces anyone to join, but... if the Baha'i Faith is true, and there is a God, and Baha'u'llah is his manifestation, and has brought a message that can bring peace and unity to the world, it would stupid not to join. Yet, people don't join. And some that do join get disillusioned and drop out.

Oh, and at some point, since Baha'is have all these laws supposedly from God, they are going to have to enforce them at some point. When is that? When a majority of people on the planet become Baha'is? When all people become Baha'is? Then what are you going to do with those that don't obey? Shun them? Fine them? Put them in Baha'i prisons? If so, it's not going to be a perfect, peaceful and unified world.

 

[KWED]

To be clearer CG, God does not hate, but does set standards for us, if we trangress, we are wrong.

God can change any laws, so what was once wrong is now right.

Regards Tony

God "dislikes" many things. "Dislike" and "hatred" can easily overlap. He also recommends "hatred" towards disbelievers. So not entirely accurate to claims that god does not hate

 

[loverofhumanity]

You mean why join a religion that is against you. I agree. People want to do it nevertheless - as much a mystery to me as it is to you. But then, we have Log Cabin (gay) Republicans on the Christian side.



Do you think your religion is the reason? You're a nice guy who wants to avoid confrontation and be friendly to all. You couldn't be that without a religion? I'm happy and have a stable life as well without religion.



Do they know that you worship a god that finds them unacceptable (by their definition, not yours, which is probably that your god loves and accepts everybody)? If they do, they respect you less for it and don't believe that you will ever accept them whatever you say. If they don't, their opinion of you will change if they do.



You are being to examine your beliefs. Here's Buddha on examining beliefs:

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conductive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." - Buddha

Was that bullying, too? Incidentally, that guy would have made a great humanist. He enshrined both reason and utilitarian ethics in that statement.



I'm with the others. I generally don't read such citations. I'm sorry if this seems disrespectful, but they read like Hallmarks - breezy exhortative language with no substance or insight. I doubt I'll ever be quoting Bahaullah as a source of wisdom or insight like I just did Buddha. Why? Because it reads as fluff to me.

Nor do I assume that the adherents citing them understand them as I would. Likewise with orphan links intended to substitute for an argument. If the poster can't or won't paraphrase the same argument himself in a few words, then he probably doesn't really understand it, and when the link is refuted, you often get, "That's not the part I meant" or "That's not what it said to me."



You may believe that, but you'd do well to understand how it reads to others.



Where's the discipline part? As I've noted already, this god is indistinguishable from nonexistent. All I see are human beings chastising other human beings in the name of an absentee deity.



You don't also believe that. You believe that exclusively, or only allow for a limited number of alternatives such as living alone or with parents or roommates. Other kinds of families are not acceptable

Equality is not equity. Sure, you equally grant to all the right to all to marry the opposite sex and have and raise children.

I like some of what you say so can you tell me where I can find those words of Buddha because I love them? I really appreciate those words you quoted.

Im more than happy to discuss any issue but the thing here is I believe in God and that He sends Teachers to us to guide us. I investigated over many years and found Baha’u’llah to be from God. So if He is then He is correct about homosexuality.

It all hinges for me on the infallibility of Baha’u’llah. Baha’is aren’t strong in their beliefs out of stubbornness or blindness but acute knowledge of the Station of a Manifestation of God. We know that a Manifestation is never, ever wrong. Why do you think the Names Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, and so on have captivated peoples hearts and minds for thousands of years if They are just people?

They possess a godly power which eventually kings and queens bow down before.

People want to live in denial about These Illustrious Figures go right ahead but no one can explain Them because They are a Mystery of God.

Why are pagodas erected all over Asia in praise of Buddha and not you or I or 100 million Buddhists? Because He was special. Same with Christ and Muhammad. People see God in Them. That whatever They taught was behind any doubt true. Did people like what They taught? Christ was crucified, Muhammad stoned and Baha’u’llah exiled.

So people oppose what they don’t understand and call it false. We are patient because we understand that so always feel welcome to pour out what you feel. I did and it led me to find the truth.

 

[KWED]

Recognised defacto relationships, maybe you do not have them in America?

https://www.fcfcoa.gov.au/fl/pubs/defacto#:~:text=What is a de facto,on a genuine domestic basis.

Regards Tony

That applies to same sex couples. So Bahaism recognises same sex couples if they were already established before joining the Bahai community? Yes?

 

[Sheldon]

When one joins the Baha’i Faith it is because they choose to do so. If they are against our laws then don’t join.

Sorry but don't join the KKK if you're not racist, and you can't if you happen to be black that's not a very compelling argument against how immoral your religion's homophobic rules are.

I don’t serve alcohol in my home. If people don’t like that then they can go where drinks are sold and served.

Is that a choice, is drinking alcohol a choice? Now try very very hard, and I am confident you might see how that differs from telling people who they are is evil unnatural and sexually aberrant.

We have our laws.

Which is a choice, and they're vile hateful homophobic laws, that openly discriminate against people who happen to have been born gay.

You don’t like them you don’t join.

Why would I join a fantasy club, that peddles vile homophobic bigotry, have you mistaken me for someone else?

But don’t bully us to accept you views.

Challenging your religion's hate speech against gay people is not bullying, it is opposing bullying. Superstitious beliefs are a choice, being gay is not a choice.

 

[KWED]

So? You look up if other people see God hates and post that?

So if one wants to know what God says about hate, here are some quotes. If we are warned against hate, one must conclude God does not Hate, but gives laws for us to Love.

Hatred | Bahá’í Quotes

I gather you are talking about the possible positive side of hate, to which I remember a thread some time ago?

Hate is not a good word thought.

Regards Tony

But Bahais consider the Quran to be the infallible word of god, and in it he explicitly recommends hatred towards those who reject Allah's word (60:4).

 

[Sheldon]

KWED said: ↑
What educational methods are being used to overcome Bahaism's prejudice against homosexuals?

Lol.

 

[KWED]

Made known and accepting may be two different things.

Regards Tony

"Made known" implies that the message is understood and accepted. That clearly hasn't happened.

If I sent a spam email to every address on the internet stating that I was the reincarnation of Alexander the Great, does the fact that I have "made it known" (by your argument) mean that anyone should be expected to accept it?

 

[CG Didymus]

Of course, they do.
My own opinion that these writings come from trying express the awe of just being. Seeing the vastness of the skies(heavens) and an answer to 'where did we come from'.
I remember as a child I was taught that I must love God with all my heart, mind etc(If memory serves that was even mentioned in prayers.) ETA The Shema
So, I asked my teachers if they have seen God, no one answered in the affirmative. In fact, I heard the phrase, which is often written here, that "God is unknowable".

I could not see how I could love something I could not know.

The Baha'is offer the next best thing. They say that the manifestations are perfect reflections of God. And the manifestations tell us things that make God sort of knowable to us. One problem... We can't go by what the older religions said about God. The Baha'is believe they are not completely accurate. Naturally, what Baha'u'llah said about God is accurate.

 

[Sheldon]

I believe in equality

No you don't, or you wouldn't be actively discriminating against gay people.

That’s your understanding. I believe otherwise.

The homophobic prejudice is manifest in your claims, and your religion's claims, and your blind adherence to such doctrine, and inability to recognise how pernicious aspects of your religion's doctrine are, doesn't change this fact.

Do you think gay people should have the same rights as straight people? It's not hard to discern or define prejudice.

 

[KWED]

You are well aware, you have been responding to what God offered in Law and many other points in many threads, that you do not attribute that to God, is again not because you were not made aware, it is your own thoughts that have become the veil.

Regards Tony

Similarly, you have been "made aware" that Bahaullah was probably delusional or dishonest. By your argument you are now expected to accept it.
But you don't. You insist that your differing position must be correct.
So we can see that "making known" is a meaningless concept in this context.

 

[KWED]

If they are Baha'i with voting rights removed, then no they can not attend a feast, but other functions like Holy days they can.

So you confirm that homosexuals are discriminated against in Bahaism.
Took 120 pages to clear that up.