That's an exhaustive list. I'm surprised actually at the number.
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Homosexuality and religious.
- Thread starter Spirit of Light
- Start date
That's an exhaustive list. I'm surprised actually at the number.
Hi @Sheldon ,
I have served on Baha'i Assemblies for over 20 years and feel I have a good working knowledge of Baha'i laws and how they are applied. It is very rare for anyone to be expelled from the Baha'i Faith. I have never come across an instance of anyone being expelled for violating Baha'i law.
Clearly atheism is a good fit for you. I wish you well.
That's odd because other Bahai say that Baha'u'llah is speaking for God when he writes that homosexuality is condemned.
And since being gay is a natural phenomenon are you sayiong that God doesn't create what exists naturally? God didn't create birds, including those that demonstrate homosexual tendencies?
Well there must be more that this because this can apply to heterosexuals too.
So the condemnation of gays DID come from God, and God DID create gay humans.
OK, two different beliefs you have about this matter.
Every Message is given in the same way.
Why is it some know this event will happen and are ready when the other 99.99999% are not?
God wants us to learn to use our free will. As you have stated communication is now global, stands to reason God gave a Message that would embrace the globe.
In fact the first Telegraph Message "What has God Wrought", taken from the Bible and opened the way for all modern day communications, it was given the Day after the Declaration of the Bab.
In America William Miller was expecting the return and predicted the correct year. The German Templers were also waiting and even moved to Haifa and set up camp at the bottom of Mt Carmel. Yet they also did not embrace the prisoner in Akka just over the bay.
The veils of this world are for us to put aside and it all depends on the eagerness of our search.
Regards Tony
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Right. Once word gets around about intolerances from certain religions many people will be turned off. The dangerous thing is attracting members that find certain intolerances a good thing. Look at evangelical Christianity and the very intolerant and toxic religion it has become since the 80's.
The Message given to them is clear and does not disagree. The warnings that those messages will be corrupted, are even more clear.
There is many Bible passages that can be offered, such as
2 Timothy 3:2 "For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,"
Yet no one thinks that is applicable to their stance, how proud and righteous do we become!
Regards Tony
As with an earlier attempt to compare the Baha'i Faith to the KKK, I believe the comparison to evangelical Christianity is a poor one.
It's really very difficult for somebody like me to understand how such thinking comes about -- but my strong suspicion is that it is the result of a very deep incongruity: the need of some people to believe, in the face of too much evidence against what they want to believe. This requires the adoption of an amount of cognitive dissonance to cope with.
If I were to encounter a teacher in a highschool who claimed, "I'm trying to teach algebra to ninth graders by hiding the very nature of variables -- so that they can discover "x" and "y" for themselves," I would think such a person an idiot. The kids are never going to learn because the most important part of the lesson was covered by a "veil" (as you put it). Why would any competent teacher try to do such a thing?
But, it would seem, this is the only way for believers to cope with the deep conundrums that I have presented.
You might suppose that my search for understanding is not "eager," but you are very wrong. I follow every hint, every bit of evidence. What I do not do is buy into the unconvincing conspiracy theories that seem to captivate so many. Sadly for you, I include in that much of religious teaching.
Show my why, and I will look. Tell me I must, and I'll wait until you give me a reason.
Do you not think, for even a moment, that if I deciced to write texts to make people believe what I wanted them to believe, that among the first things I'd consider is telling them (warning them) that "anything else you hear will be a lie?"
Oh, please.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
As I said it is the homosexual behavior that is condemned, not the homosexuals.
Sexual behavior is only one aspect of a person. A person is not his sexual behavior.
Baha'is are not creationists. We believe that everything in nature evolved over the course of time.
It certainly can apply to heterosexuals, and it applies more to heterosexuals since there are more heterosexuals.
The condemnation of homosexual acts came from God.
God did not create gay humans. Humans evolved and some humans became gay after they were born.
Did you sto having sex because your religion prohibits it? Or other reasons?
If it is other, personal reasons, why think gay people would join a religion that prejudices aginst their innate nature? It's not a fair comparison.
The great thing about Faith is that it is 100% a freewill choice.
Why we should embrace Faith, is part of discovering one's own self, there is no one answer, for there are as many answers, as there are people.
As to the Must, I see the Messenger give all those thought in the Messages given. It is up to us to see the benefits, or to ignore what was given.
In this age it is about the salvation of all humanity, we are indeed now on the brink of great destruction, with threats of nuclear reprisals. This destruction is what all God's Messengers warn us about.
I can only live the morals and virtues to the best of my abilities, I have fallen short many times, but we are to pick ourselves up and try again, that is this life, a constant fight against the lower nature of man, to strive to live the ideals of the Spirit that is of God.
When Abdul'baha was asked how we can fast track this, Abdul'baha replied "Little by little day by day".
Regards Tony
Sexual exxpression is an important part of how we humans relate and build intimacy. So if you condemn a natural behavior that gays do, then you are condemning them as people. I understand this is an embarrassing and controversial rule in your religion, and you Bahai work hard to massage the prejudice out of it, but it is there. The pain and harm is real against gay people. Heterosexual Bahai are not being empathetic about the harm this rule causes, and that is why Bahai has a bad reputation.
Evangelicals have been heavily criticized for their prejudice against gays as well, and their "pray away the gay" activities have caused a great deal of harm. it only makes believers look more foolish, and arrogant, as if they are Gods thesmselves.
OK. Then your God knows being gay evolved, yet condemns it. If God condemns people with blue eyes the Bahai would have that prejudice as well. And why? Only because a messenger had that belief. You even admit you aren't sure these rules came from God. Yet you follow it as if you knew it was.
Yet the rules don't condemn sex, only violations of the puritanical ideals.
This isn't a fact (and there are religions whose God does not condemn gays). This is Bahai doctrine, and you think it's true. It is not something tolerant mortals agree with, so the question is why your God is intolerant. What hurts your God that gays have sex?
I would agree that gays are evolved, but I don't think gay is a learned behavior. I suspect you are confusing how some gay people try to be heterosexual early in life due to social pressure, but later in life acknowledge their true nature. The "he turned gay" thing isn't literal.
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That is indeed a quandary faced, but not one to be pushed aside, it needs to be considered. We have been given good guidance on this, guidance that the the veil of Names prevents us from implementing.
The Bible warns us of many false teachers and offers that no good fruit comes from a bad tree. Fruits of the Spirit have been given to us, so we can understand what is good and what is bad. It just takes time for us to study what this may be.
For some, they are more intune with this, it comes more naturally, personally, for me I have to fight the self every day.
Regards Tony
No, because we are talking about ideologies that have obsolete prejudices, yet members keep trying to defend it. Those three groups you cite above share a common bond: an obsolete prejudice in the 21st century.
What Baha'u'llah thought and wrote in the 19th century was surely widely accepted, but it is obsolete and bigoted in the 21st century.
Well if the Baha'is were having expeditions at night riding on horses, hooded, burning 9 sided stars on the lawns of their local gay couples...I'd have to agree.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Speaking as a former lifetime conservative and Republican (from 1992 to 2018) and an evangelical Christian for thirty years (1991 to 2021), I concur with your assessment that evangelical Christianity has essentially turned toxic and intolerable. Personally, I think your definition of evangelical Christianity accurately describes what occurred to it under the influence and control of Donald Trump and his evangelical conservative cohorts. In fact, it was a contributing factor in my decision to leave the Republican Party in Nov. 2018 after 26 years of loyal political support and eventually contributed to my decision to forsake my Christian faith roughly three years later.
This is an example of trying to massage the prejudice out of your religion's doctrines. Your response is absurd, as even modern KKK don't ride horses.
What your members have admitted to is very polite harm. Now it's true that gays aren't by default Bahais, and easy victims, but there are, and have been, gay Bahai, and some have expressed experiences that are very cruel and harmful.
Even the passive prejudice against gays hurts non-members of your religion. Any religious organization that claims to act through the will of God has strong influences on society, and to my mind it is a responsibility that should be taken seriously by leaders. Yet we see leaders of religious organizations exploit fear, advance tribalism, and create division that can attract members and disinfranchise others. This is additionally odd since many Bahai claim their religious goal is unity. Targeting any class of people is sabotage to unity. And if Baha'u'llah didn't understand this basic truth, then that puts his credibility in doubt.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I did not stop because my religion prohibits it. I stopped initially because of marital problems I was having at that time, and then I never went back to having sex because I lost interest in sex. I never thought about sex after that, except when people started talking about it on the forum.
I do not think they would join it, if sex was important to them. There as a time when sex was very important to me so I fully understand. If I got married again I might have sex again if it was important to my husband, since I cannot only think about myself and what I want.