Homosexuality and religious.

[Trailblazer]

And yet billions of people are happy without god, or believing in the wrong god. So how does that work?

People are happy for many different reasons. Happiness is subjective.

I find that most people who claim to be Christian are not happy because of God. They are happy about their family and friends, their interests and hobbies.

 

[Trailblazer]

But by its own standards, that will never happen because Bahaism discriminates against homosexuality, so homosexuals and those who support their rights to equal treatment will never accept Bahaism.

The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, and unity are still attainable even if homosexuals do not accept the Baha'i Faith. If a majority accepts the counsels of Baha'u'llah and follows them this can be attained. Everyone does not have to join the Baha'i Faith.

 

[CG Didymus]

We debate for the intellectual fun just like some will play chess or do crossword puzzles. This is an adversarial and social activity. It's actually good for minds to be stimulated like this.

I looked up the Baha'i quote...

The shining spark of truth cometh forth only after the clash of differing opinions. – Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, p. 87.

There is no specific step-by-step guide to the process of Baha’i consultation, but the following sequence will give the reader a fairly clear picture of the process:

1. Spiritual and emotional preparation
2. Establishment of mutual trust
3. Frank and non-aggressive participation
4. Collective consideration of ideas
5. Non-personalization of ideas
6. Problem definition
7. Gathering possible solutions
8. Refinement of solution
9. The process of reaching a consensus
10. Humble submission to the will of the majority
11. Collective and affirmative action

The Baha’i consultative process always seeks to find the truth, not to force anyone’s opinions. Everyone’s opinion is regarded as equally valid, and as truth is relative to the sum total of collective understanding, the only way to discover what action would be appropriate is to have the frank participation of everyone involved. Each participant offers his or her opinion as an approximation and not an absolute, with the humble understanding that the total result will be greater than the sum of the individual contributions. Baha’i consultation, both frank and loving, is held in a non-aggressive atmosphere in which all the participants tacitly acknowledge from the outset the willingness to change their minds if a better idea emerges. Abdu’l-Baha pointed out that in consultation, opinions clash, not individuals: “The shining spark of truth cometh only after the clash of differing opinions.”
​

So, how should Baha'is consult with non-Baha'is? Some of these things sound like they would still apply. Except one huge problem... Whatever the non-Baha'is say doesn't matter in this case, because we are debating, or "consulting" about something they have already determined to be true, with absolute certainty.... Homosexuality is wrong and is forbidden.

 

[CG Didymus]

Standing up for a group that is discriminated against for irrational reasons is admirable. I, for one, am happy you're taking this stance. Even if one homophobe becomes a former homophobe, you've succeeded. Sadly, for some, they just dig in deeper, and renew their determination to stick to their guns. In the end, we all take some solace in the fact that we tried.

He is the reason this thread got started. It behoveth him to take part in it.

 

[Trailblazer]

With all due respect, that is the fundamental reason why people believe.

That is why some people believe but not why all people believe.
All believers do not believe to get a reward in heaven.

 

[Trailblazer]

What does that mean? Everyone is rightly and reasonably "attached to things of this world". Food, shelter, family. I'm particularly attached to sunsets in the mountains.What could possibly be wrong with this and why would god be against it?

And I am attached to my cats.....
Nothing is wrong with enjoying the things of this world unless the attachment intervenes between them and God.

“Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276

 

[CG Didymus]

The Abrahamic God likes to boss around. Tomorrow a believer may say that even more than one God is OK. It has to be one God, one prophet, one book of rule, however outdated they might be. There is a limit to how flexible an Abrahamic God can be.

It's not just the Abrahamic God. The God of the Aztecs was pretty inflexible about demanding a blood sacrifice if the people expected good crops the next year. Then I keep wondering about the last guy to get stoned to death for being a homosexual. What happened? Right after that God stopped enforcing the law? One day it is an absolute necessity and the next it's not? Is that God being "flexible" or nuts?

 

[Trailblazer]

"The great thing about heroin is that it is 100% a freewill choice."

The great thing about atheism is that it is 100% a freewill choice.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why does it sound sillier every time I read it?

Of course, we'll have peace if everyone obeys the Baha'i rules.

Or maybe not? Even in a Baha'i world can people live in peace? Like I said earlier, if the laws were made for Baha'is, then the laws about burning an arsonist and tattooing a thief, are for Baha'is that do those things.

 

[F1fan]

The great thing about atheism is that it is 100% a freewill choice.

Unless someone grows up in an environment where there are no religions. Theism would not be a factor in how people think about their life and experience, so even atheism as a set of responses to theisms would not be an option, but the net result is that people would not be religious, which in essence is atheistic.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Speaking as a survivor of childhood abuse, I have to call bull$&%# on your statement. Not only was I severely abused and perpetually bullied when I was growing up, I was also a devout believer in God during this time in my life. I prayed to God numerous times when I was a child and asked him to save me, but apparently he couldn't be bothered or else he didn't think I was worth the trouble. The so-called loving and merciful God of the Bible did not save me or protect me from the abuse and bullying that I suffered for years. I was severely abused for 13 and a half years, and I was perpetually bullied and harassed in school for 12 years while I was growing up. I've had to deal with PTSD for years as an adult, which is the result of the trauma, abuse, and bullying I endured while growing up. Would you mind telling me how being severely abused and bullied was in my best interest? Where was your God during this time in my life?

My wife had the same experiences, yet she was the one that found the Baha'i Faith, to which she shared with me.

It changed both our lives dramatically.

My wife read this prayer and embraced the Baha'i Faith at that very moment.

"OGod! Refresh and gladden my spirit. Purify my heart. Illumine my powers. I lay all my affairs in Thy hand. Thou art my Guide and my Refuge. I will no longer be sorrowful and grieved; I will be a happy and joyful being. O God! I will no longer be full of anxiety, nor will I let trouble harass me. I will not dwell on the unpleasant things of life.

O God! Thou art more friend to me than I am to myself. I dedicate myself to Thee, O Lord.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá

So that indicates that each person has a choice, and your choice was not like my wife's choice.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Why should they

I did not say they should, I said they can.

 

[Trailblazer]

Remember that homosexuals have been, and still are lynched in public based on the words and deeds of one of Bahaism's infallible messengers of god.

Based upon the words and deeds of which Messenger?
Unless the lynching is based on the words and deeds of Baha'u'llah it has nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, all "deviant", "abhorrent", and "forbidden" sexual practices, including homosexuality, must be purged from society before there can be peace? Then will there ever be peace, because many Baha'is and most all other people have "forbidden" desires from time to time and break one or more of the things that Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith has declared wrong. He is asking all people that aren't married to a person of the opposite sex to be pure in thought and deed... to be completely and totally celibate. Who can, and who wants to live like that? Maybe a few super spiritual people, but who else?

I do not read it that way CG. I read it that mankind has to embrace the Oneness of humanity and work towards unity.

This is such a Councel I see needs to be embraced.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 115-116

We will all struggle with the laws, as we were raised in the decadence of an unbridled liberty of the sexual revolution.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's the great thing? It would be better if nobody opted for that choice. Faith is why Baha'i disesteem homosexuality and contribute to Abrahamic homophobia. Faith is why America is about to enter a tumultuous cultural battle over abortion laws that will harm society. And it's not limited to religious faith. Faith is why so many people rejected the climate scientists, which facilitated the mess we're in today and the bigger mess coming (Have you heard the trope that this was the hottest summer of your life so far and the coolest one of your life to come?) Faith is why so many people believe that the last presidential election was stolen and why many of them participated in a failed coup and will now be heading off to prison. Faith is why people refused a life-saving vaccine and hundreds of thousands died needlessly in America, leaving families missing a parent or two and in financial ruin. In every case, reason applied to evidence is the better path to belief.

We get to decide what is from our own selves and what is from God.

We have to look beyond other peoples faults and look within our own self. I see that If we see faults in others, they are still within our own selves.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But what some Baha'is are doing is starting threads they know it have a negative response. Who are the only people that have agreed with Baha'is about the Baha'i teaching on homosexuality? A JW? Maybe a Fundy Christian or two? Atheists and liberal religious people are all against the Baha'i beliefs that homosexuality is wrong and evil.

Life is about learning CG. This topic will help the person that started it.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Rubbish.

You continually propagate your personal opinions as if they are facts so there is a lot of rubbish on this thread.

you are the one who relentlessly presents your subjective unevidenced religious beliefs as facts,

I never present my religious beliefs as facts and I continually say they are not facts since they can never be proven.
You made the claim, so show me where I ever said my religious beliefs are facts.
Just because I am 100% certain of my beliefs that does not mean I think they are facts facts.

Your beliefs on gay people are pernicious, that is a fact.

No, that is not a fact, it is only your personal opinion.
Aside from that, I have no 'beliefs' on gay people nor do I have any negative attitudes towards them.

 

[F1fan]

My wife had the same experiences, yet she was the one that found the Baha'i Faith, to which she shared with me.

It changed both our lives dramatically.

My wife read this prayer and embraced the Baha'i Faith at that very moment.

"OGod! Refresh and gladden my spirit. Purify my heart. Illumine my powers. I lay all my affairs in Thy hand. Thou art my Guide and my Refuge. I will no longer be sorrowful and grieved; I will be a happy and joyful being. O God! I will no longer be full of anxiety, nor will I let trouble harass me. I will not dwell on the unpleasant things of life.

O God! Thou art more friend to me than I am to myself. I dedicate myself to Thee, O Lord.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá

So that indicates that each person has a choice, and your choice was not like my wife's choice.

Regards Tony

I read these kinds of affirmations and it doesn't resonate to my mind in any meaningful way. I recognize the words as religious, and recognize an appeal to a God, and my mind immediately dismisses it as unrealistic and questionable.

It's interesting that it addresses anxiety, as many people feel powerless and filled with anxiety in life, much of that from subconscious fears that can't be managed directly. Religions do use this condition of people and design prayers and affirmations to attract these peolpe. Does it help? Sure, it acts as a sort of placebo. It doesn't resolve the anxiety, just masks it temporarily. This explains why religion can become a dependency for some folks, and why they can't think beyond what their religions dictate. This can apply to political ideology as well.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have no objective evidence any deity exists, or is even possible.

The evidence of His existence that God has provided are His Messengers.
You can take it or leave it.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you just have to accept it as a legitimate and moral form of sexuality. One that does no harm and should be afforded just the same rights and respect as heterosexuals.

He is a Christian....
Why does he have to accept homosexuality as moral when the Bible says it is immoral?