Homosexuality and religious.

[Trailblazer]

The word I keep coming back to in my mind is "shame". Shoghi Effendi reports that Baha'u'llah spoke against homosexuality as shameful. This shame, imo, is amplified by requiring homosexuals to remain in hiding.

Again, nobody has to remain in hiding because they do not have to become Baha'is unless they choose to, and then if they choose to become Baha'is knowing what the laws are they still do not have to hide. All that is required is that they do not flagrantly flaunt their sexuality in public. Nobody is knocking on their doors checking on them. The worst that can happen if they flagrantly flaunt their sexuality in public is that their voting rights can be taken away, but they are never expelled from the Faith.

Regarding whether a Baha'i knows the rules: is there a standardized process for conversion into Baha'i? Is a new person expected to read the law in advance of enrollment?

I do not know what the process is nowadays and I it varies according to where one lives.
No, I don't think they are expected to know every law, just the most important ones, but if they want to know they should read the Book of Laws.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

How did I take this out of context?

""Pride days are our ways of saying to a world full of bigots, "F You!"

Why not say its our way of showing we love each other, that we are happy, etc.

But instead you say "Pride days are our ways of saying to a world full of bigots, "F You!"

Really, now -- try to be just a little bit honest. It won't hurt, other people have managed it.

WERE THERE NO OTHER WORDS IN THAT PARAGRAPH FOLLOWING THE FEW YOU CHOSE TO QUOTE? WAS THERE A CONTEXT THAT YOU IGNORED?

 

[We Never Know]

Really, now -- try to be just a little bit honest. It won't hurt, other people have managed it.

WERE THERE NO OTHER WORDS IN THAT PARAGRAPH FOLLOWING THE FEW YOU CHOSE TO QUOTE? WAS THERE A CONTEXT THAT YOU IGNORED?

Is this post really here? Can you reply to people you have on ignore?
Or were you being dishonest when you said "You're on ignore".

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Is this post really here? Can you reply to people you have on ignore?
Or were you being dishonest when you said "You're on ignore".

And was that just another diversionary tactic? Oh, goodness, who'd have guessed?

But I suppose it's easier than answering the question honestly. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe honesty would be painful for you.

(And no, I wasn't being dishonest. You are on ignore -- but I'm angry, and there are ways to see ignored posts.)

 

[We Never Know]

And was that just another diversionary tactic? Oh, goodness, who'd have guessed?

But I suppose it's easier than answering the question honestly. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe honesty would be painful for you.

(And no, I wasn't being dishonest. You are on ignore -- but I'm angry, and there are ways to see ignored posts.)

A hug to help settle your anger


See I don't hate you.

 

[CG Didymus]

Well, as you know I am a strong atheist. I do not believe in existence of God or soul. For me, it is society which decides morals.

And if you are right, that there is no God, then it's people in a society that are making the moral codes and other laws and then pretending they came from an invisible God. And how would anyone know enough to deny it?

Like with the Baha'is... A man claims an invisible, and to the average human, unknowable God. But this guy says he does know God and God told him all these laws and moral codes. And one of those moral codes is that homosexuality is abhorrent, unnatural and is forbidden by God. And how do we know for sure? Are we supposed to take his word for it?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Manifestation of God says otherwise and I trust His Knowledge above human error prone minds.

Of course, if he really is from God, we should all listen to him. But we hear so many different stories about who God is and what God wants and what God is going to do. And what do most of them, or maybe all of them, have in common? They can't prove a thing. All they have is their Scriptures, and they believe them completely and literally. Baha'is are doing the same. Their Scripture are without error and literally true?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

A hug to help settle your anger


See I don't hate you.

And yet another diversion. Honest dialogue doesn't do that.

 

[dybmh]

Again, nobody has to remain in hiding because they do not have to become Baha'is unless they choose to, and then if they choose to become Baha'is knowing what the laws are they still do not have to hide. All that is required is that they do not flagrantly flaunt their sexuality in public. Nobody is knocking on their doors checking on them. The worst that can happen if they flagrantly flaunt their sexuality in public is that their voting rights can be taken away, but they are never expelled from the Faith.

Do you think a gay Baha'i couple would be able to attend Baha'i events together? Or is that flagrantly flaunting their sexuality?

I do not know what the process is nowadays and I it varies according to where one lives.
No, I don't think they are expected to know every law, just the most important ones, but if they want to know they should read the Book of Laws.

ok thank you

 

[CG Didymus]

I was just new and not in the same community as them but they were Baha’is in good standing as I saw their identity card. You want a good story? I’ll tell it to you.

When I had moved on and accepted the Faith, years later I saw John walking down the Main Street. I knew he was a Baha’i but he did not know I had joined. Anyway I said hello then asked him if he could lend me a few $$ as I was hoping to spot his Baha’i identity card.

So he took out his wallet and I said “What’s that?” and he said it was his Baha’i identity card. At that moment I shouted allowed “Allah’u’Abha and embraced him. He was overwhelmed with joy. He had taken me in and showed me love and fed me and referred me to other Baha’is. And we became best friends. I didn’t even think about Gay. He was my friend. The Baha’i teachings tell us to love everyone so that has always been my attitude.

Nice story and true.

And why isn't that the standard for all Baha'is? Why does God forbid them from enjoying a physical relationship? And because the Faith does forbid homosexuality, why do some Baha'is report them for being "gay" in public? Out of love for them?

 

[We Never Know]

Try thinking. How many campaigns are ongoing around the world saying "heterosexuality is wrong, heterosexuals should be jailed, or killed?" How many -- I'll take just an estimate. Back in the 1960s, just for example, that would include most of the western world (as well as the all those backward countries that are still there). Would you not, if that were the case, stand up and fight for the righrt to be who you are? Or would you crumble and meekly find yourself a same-sex partner?

No, you don't get it because you NEVER SUFFERED IT. Nobody ever tried to shame you because you had a crush on a person of the opposite sex. Nobody ever refused to rent you an apartment, or cater your wedding, because you wanted to marry somebody of the opposite sex.

Well, that's what we lived. Pride days aren't about "pride." Pride days are our ways of saying to a world full of bigots, "F You! We are not going to be ashamed of being who we are, who we must be." :You don't have to do that. And that makes you 100% IGNORANT about the subject you are discussing.

And if ignorance makes you look foolish in a discussion, well, that's on you.

"And that makes you 100% IGNORANT about the subject you are discussing"

False whining. I have a second cousin who is gay and a first cousin who is lesbian. I have been very active in both of their lives, but you think..
I am "100% IGNORANT about the subject you are discussing" because I don't see things your way.
Coincidentally he is her nephew.

 

[CG Didymus]

We have no objective evidence that Jesus said any of the things assigned him, even if we did it wouldn't objectively evidence the claims of course.

And Baha'is don't even support that the words in the NT are necessarily accurate. And for sure, they don't believe several of the stories about Jesus as being literally and historically true. Yet, they believe in him anyway.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course, if he really is from God, we should all listen to him.

Would you listen to Baha'u'llah if you knew He was from God?
That is where the Baha'is are coming from.

 

[CG Didymus]

A Baha'i world view embraces science, reason and critical evaluation.

Is there any science that you've come across that supports the Baha'i belief that homosexuality is unnatural?

 

[We Never Know]

And yet another diversion. Honest dialogue doesn't do that.

Diversion? You point blank said you do something for the purpose of saying F-YOU to others.

Hate begets hate, violence begets violence, etc. Live with your choices for what they are.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

"And that makes you 100% IGNORANT about the subject you are discussing"

False whining. I have a second cousin who is gay and a first cousin who is lesbian. I have been very active in both of their lives, but you think..
I am "100% IGNORANT about the subject you are discussing" because I don't see things your way.
Coincidentally he is her nephew.

I did not say you are ignorant because you don't see things my way. I said you are ignorant because you never had to face being told that your sexual orientation was wrong and shameful.

I'm always fascinated by people who claim to know somebody who had a problem -- and then claim they're intimately familiar with the problem. A first and second cousin? Whoopee! I don't even care if it's a sister, brother, mother or father. I'm talking about YOU. What do you know, first hand, about what it is like to be told you are -- by your very nature -- unfit to belong among "decent, moral folk?"

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Diversion? You point blank said you do something for the purpose of saying F-YOU to others.

Hate begets hate, violence begets violence, etc. Live with your choices for what they are.

After several tries, I'm going to assume you're never going to answer the actual question. That is, of course, completely expected.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you think a gay Baha'i couple would be able to attend Baha'i events together? Or is that flagrantly flaunting their sexuality?

I really don't know. I think one of the other Baha'is who are more active in their Baha'i communities would be better able to answer your question.
@TransmutingSoul @Dawnofhope @loverofhumanity @Truthseeker

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Is there any science that you've come across that supports the Baha'i belief that homosexuality is unnatural?

I wish people could bring themselves to consider the broader question of "unnatural" versus "uncommon."

It is very uncommon to be albino, but quite natural. It's somewhat uncommon to be left-handed, or have black hair and blue eyes, but quite natural. It's quite uncommon to be attracted to one's own gender, but no science has ever shown it to be unnatural -- and much science suggests the opposite.

 

[We Never Know]

After several tries, I'm going to assume you're never going to answer the actual question. That is, of course, completely expected.

What I have or haven't been through in life isn't the discussion.

I own guns, some people don't like that and complain about that.
I dang sure am not going to go parading around with my guns to get their attention and ire up then complain when that happens.