Homosexuality and religious.

[Trailblazer]

So it is acceptable as per natural as a part of observable nature that homosexual people can have children. You can learn that though basic science and you accept that according to your beliefs, don't you?

How can homosexual people produce children by having sex with each other?

 

[Trailblazer]

The same with free will or is that a fact?

Free will is not a fact since it cannot be proven that we have free will.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

How can homosexual people produce children by having sex with each other?

Yes, but even without sex it is possible.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Free will is not a fact since it cannot be proven that we have free will.

But you state as a fact that people have free will, as you use it about people, who don't have your faith.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And if he's lucky enough to find a partner he loves, would you really think that immoral?

My son has a partner. It has nothing to do with me, I support my son and his partner and Love them as I love all.

Have you considered anything a Baha'i has offerred in this topic?

Did you read this link, this is a good overall summary, but not an exhaustive list that someone who wishes to be a Baha'i can consider.

The Baha’i Teachings and Homosexuality

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So they sign the card while being ignorant of any of it? That sounds like fraud tactics. "Don't read the fine print, just sign the contract."

Wait, so you just said the investigation begins with signing the card, and now you say it's enough? Well if they know enough what more is there to investigate?

A dilemma indeed, when you take what I offered and put your twist on it.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why does one have to sign a card?

The Baha'i Faith has an Administrative Order. That Administrative Order is voted in. Records are required for obvious reasons, age elegability etc. Also only a Baha'i can contribute to the Baha'i Funds and you must be a Baha'i in good standing to donate, one needs a record of who can freely participate in giving Funds to the Baha'i Faith.

Personally I see it is also a confirmation, a contract that one will endeavour to fulfill.

One can annul that contract by writing a resignation. Some choose to withdraw without doing that.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

The Baha’i Teachings and Homosexuality

Hi Tony, I read the link. Thank you.

The first thing I noticed was the 100% absence of any moral judgements. Homosexual behavior was not labeled immoral or as an evil passion. IMO, this should influence how Baha'i relate to homosexuality. The connection to immorality and evil should be abandoned.

The other thing I noticed was at the very end, in the section titled "Why don’t Baha’is establish or recognize same-sex marriage within the Baha’i community?" it says:

While it may not be possible for some individuals to enroll as Baha’is, they can, if they choose, continue their study of the Baha’i teachings and strive to put them into practice in their lives.
​

If it's not possible for some individuals to enroll as Baha'is, then that is still discrimination. It's still exclusive, not inclusive, and seems to me to be at odds with the stated goals of the faith.

But other than that, I think that this document is much better than this one compiled in 1993. ( Homosexuality ). I honestly think this earlier document should be retired and the offensive comments detailed should be disavowed.

 

[F1fan]

A dilemma indeed, when you take what I offered and put your twist on it.

Regards Tony

Your words were contradictory.

Whatever twist i put on Bahai they still are a religious organization that is prejudiced against gays, and for no articulate reason.

The membership card is a known marketing tactic. It gets a person committed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hi Tony, I read the link. Thank you.

The first thing I noticed was the 100% absence of any moral judgements. Homosexual behavior was not labeled immoral or as an evil passion. IMO, this should influence how Baha'i relate to homosexuality. The connection to immorality and evil should be abandoned.

The other thing I noticed was at the very end, in the section titled "Why don’t Baha’is establish or recognize same-sex marriage within the Baha’i community?" it says:

While it may not be possible for some individuals to enroll as Baha’is, they can, if they choose, continue their study of the Baha’i teachings and strive to put them into practice in their lives.
​

If it's not possible for some individuals to enroll as Baha'is, then that is still discrimination. It's still exclusive, not inclusive, and seems to me to be at odds with the stated goals of the faith.

But other than that, I think that this document is much better than this one compiled in 1993. ( Homosexuality ). I honestly think this earlier document should be retired and the offensive comments detailed should be disavowed.

Thanks for the response. You have summarised it well.

It is a quandary many Baha'is face, it can only be balanced when one dives deeper into what Baha'u'llah offered and with the laws there are passages such as this, but many more as well.

"Think not that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power. To this beareth witness that which the Pen of Revelation hath revealed. Meditate upon this, O men of insight!" Baha’u’llah, The Most Holy Book, p. 21.

So it is offering there is much more in the wisdom of the law that we need to consider.

The Spiritual side and the Laws given have to find a balance. I have thought a lot about this over the years, as in my journey I have been on both side of the law given by Baha'u'llah.

I always think as to how the world will find that Balance, then I consider Baha'u'llah has given it.

Imagine an orthodox Jew and a free thinking Christian (even an athiest) as to how divided they are in law. Maybe we can then see the balance in the Law given by Baha'u'llah?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Your words were contradictory.

Whatever twist i put on Bahai they still are a religious organization that is prejudiced against gays, and for no articulate reason.

The membership card is a known marketing tactic. It gets a person committed.

Your interpretation was wrong, but I am not going to explain it further. It will serve no useful purpose.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

When was there a time when there wasn't homosexuality? Did it ever cause a crisis of not enough babies?

Hopefully that will never happen.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, but even without sex it is possible.

That's true, but so what?
How many babies do you think would be born without men and women having sex together?

 

[Trailblazer]

But you state as a fact that people have free will, as you use it about people, who don't have your faith.

No, I never stated as a fact that people have free will.
I believe people have free will but that is not a fact since it cannot be proven.

 

[Sheldon]

As always you are pages behind. I used to think you were just a gaslighter but changed my mind. You are like the guy standing in the crowd jumping up and down, waiving his arms, seeking attention saying look at me.

So petty ad hominem is all you have again then. I never wavered in my estimation of your posts, trolltastic, and not vey subtle either. Anyway not much point expending any real energy on the facile guff you post, so I'll just keep pasting the questions you ignored, that exposed the idiocy of your claims.

What objective evidence can you demonstrate to support your idiotic assumption that being gay is genetic? That has apparently escaped the entire scientific world.

When you're done wiping that egg off your face, gay people can and do reproduce having heterosexual sex. They're are also born overwhelmingly to straight parents. So go on champ, tell us how their genes are going to die out, I'm sure we're all agog with anticipation. Better still tell us why there are still gay people after hundreds of thousands of years.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And why isn't that the standard for all Baha'is? Why does God forbid them from enjoying a physical relationship? And because the Faith does forbid homosexuality, why do some Baha'is report them for being "gay" in public? Out of love for them?

It is basically between the individual and God.

 

[Sheldon]

Should religious societies be better? You seem to be saying that both religious and atheistic societies have prejudices, so the religious offers no advantage other than passing off accountability to a perfect God?

Well said, and I had hoped not to have to spell this one out, but surely the claim to have perfect morality from a perfectly moral deity, ought not to reflect the human ignorance and prejudice of those who claimed to receive that message. Whereas one would logically expect human ignorance and fallibility to form part of the laws of any secular society.

Ironically it is theists we see clinging to immoral archaic and pernicious prejudice. Hardly a compelling argument for their claims, when the only defence I've seen thus far is "because I believe a deity says so".

 

[Sheldon]

It is basically between the individual and God.

Nope, that's just a subjective opinion, other humans have the right to measure your claims against science, logic and even their own subjective morality, when that is manifestly less pernicious.

 

[Sheldon]

Enough was known when signing that card, to have Faith

Faith requires no knowledge, by definition.

 

[Sheldon]

I knew you would answer that well.

You think a circular reasoning fallacy is answering well? That speaks volumes.