Homosexuality and religious.

[Vinayaka]

Fair enough. Maybe because I’ve read extensively and been a Baha’i for 45 years I have a good idea if there is homophobia or not. My belief is there definitely is not homophobia taught in our teachings at all but on the contrary to treat homosexuals with love.

But have homosexuals been discriminated against by Baha’is. I personally don’t know of any cases in my 45 years but I’ve read of some and agree that as Baha’is are just people, we can be homophobic, but that it is against our laws to discriminate against homosexuals.

Homosexuals can become Baha’is and stay Baha’is all their lives. It is a private matter between them and God. If they have things like gay parties or binge drinking parties, sex parties etc then it can be a problem. But normally a gay Baha’i is welcome and can stay a Baha’i forever.

Obviously you didn't watch the linked videos telling their own stories.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Some opinions, simply shouldn't be spoken out loud or written down. If you want to hold your anti-homosexual view point, then keep it to yourself. No one will oppress you about it again.

That’s true. You are 100% correct. Maybe I should not have posted on this thread and maybe not do so or reply anymore. Everyone here is good.

 

[dybmh]

Im not to judge. My job if you want to call it that is to show love and kindness to all, to look at my own faults not others. God I believe is the only One Who can judge. So it is not for me to do anything but love all people and accept them the way they are.

I don’t expect anyone to live according to my beliefs. I don’t impose my beliefs on others.
But in the religion I choose to follow God has made certain laws and I try and follow them. But these laws are only for believers not wider society.

So although we discuss it really it is a law only confined to Baha’is.

If you stick with this ^^, I think you'll notice a lot less criticism. Once you claim homosexuality is unnatural, or abnormal, or an affliction, or immoral, or ( my favorite ) disgusting then you have completely contradicted yourself, and it reflects poorly on you and your faith.

You said: "Im not to judge. My job if you want to call it that is to show love and kindness to all," Labeling homosexuality as unnatural, abnormal, immoral, etc is a function of your judgement. Labeling homosexuality as disgusting is not showing love and kindness.

You make this idea of love and kindness look like a marketing slogan. Nothing real.

 

[Vinayaka]

That’s true. You are 100% correct. Maybe I should not have posted on this thread and maybe not do so or reply anymore. Everyone here is good.

I think you should stay ... read, listen, think, evaluate, hear, empathize.

 

[dybmh]

Fair enough. Maybe because I’ve read extensively and been a Baha’i for 45 years I have a good idea if there is homophobia or not. My belief is there definitely is not homophobia taught in our teachings at all but on the contrary to treat homosexuals with love.

Yes, it does say that. It gives me hope that Baha'i can overcome this obstacle.

But have homosexuals been discriminated against by Baha’is. I personally don’t know of any cases in my 45 years but I’ve read of some and agree that as Baha’is are just people, we can be homophobic, but that it is against our laws to discriminate against homosexuals.

No, that's not true. The law prohibiting marriage of a gay couple is discrimination. The law prohibiting some gay Baha'i from enrolling in the faith, and from administrative/voting functions is discrimination. If it has never happened in your community, that's great. But the law still discriminates, it can be denied, but not credibly.

Homosexuals can become Baha’is and stay Baha’is all their lives. It is a private matter between them and God. If they have things like gay parties or binge drinking parties, sex parties etc then it can be a problem. But normally a gay Baha’i is welcome and can stay a Baha’i forever.

A gay couple would not be permitted to participate fully. If a gay Baha'i meets another gay Baha'i they cannot be open about their relationship without consequences.

 

[F1fan]

That’s true. You are 100% correct. Maybe I should not have posted on this thread and maybe not do so or reply anymore. Everyone here is good.

The dilemma is that why would you be wary of sharing God's truth, unless you realize there is something wrong about it?

You Bahai are doing your best to defend the religion even though the odds are stacked against you.

To my mind if a theist actually has God's truth it won't offend anyone.

 

[dybmh]

That’s true. You are 100% correct. Maybe I should not have posted on this thread and maybe not do so or reply anymore. Everyone here is good.

Maybe you shouldn't have posted your anti-homosexual view point. That's all.

 

[CG Didymus]

To suggest a bias against non-belief is ironic since you certainly reject all other religions as well, except Bahai.

I agree.

Just one important correction. Baha’is accept and believe in all the religions not just our own. We believe in Krishna, Buddha, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

In our weekly services we read from the Bhagavad-Gita, the Bible, Quran, Buddhist scriptures and Zend Avesta as well as Baha’i Writungs.

And what is it that Baha'is believe and accept about any of the other religions? Only what the Baha'i Faith says is true about the other religions. It's not that Baha'is believe what the other religions say and teach about themselves.

In Hinduism and Buddhism, what do Baha'is believe to be the God revealed Scriptures of those religions? And I always ask Baha's, what about the religions of other cultures and people? Like the Egyptian, Greek or Aztec religion? With some of these other religions, I would think, that even Baha'is would say they are false and nothing but myth. Is that correct or do you really believe in "all" religions?

 

[CG Didymus]

I know you were just joking but never ever. Gays are very good people.

The teachings of Baha’u’llah have encircled the globe thousands of times but fallen on deaf ears mostly.

One of His teachings is if a king opposes another and arises with an army against him, all the world should unite and bring that government to its knees. But is the entire world rising against Putin? So he continues his aggression because of disunity. The same with Iran’s women. Where is world unity against Iran? And Myanmar is massacring it’s own people but Russia and China vetoed any UN action. So where is the world while war criminals massacre their own citizens?

So Baha’u’llah’s remedy will work but governments refuse to implement it so we could be headed for a third war in order to get that unity.

Be united, O kings of the earth, for thereby will the tempest of discord be stilled amongst you, and your peoples find rest, if ye be of them that comprehend. Should anyone among you take up arms against another, rise ye all against him, for this is naught but manifest justice. (Baha’u’llah)

What did you think of my idea of the Baha'is gathering on the roads and blocking the advancing Russian army? I think other religious people have done similar things, and even though sometimes many of them were killed, I think it worked.

Because all the nations rising up against Russian or any other nation is still war.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay -- if you see the evidence, why don't you share it with us?

I have.

I have been with my partner for over 30 years. We are a very loving gay couple. We have helped each other through a great deal -- and the worst deal of all, is that he suffered the worst sort of Guillaine-Barre Syndrome there is - paralyzed from the neck down, and will never recover completely enough to work, drive, walk very far. For 8 1/2 months, I went to work in the morning, ran to the hospital to feed him lunch, then back to work, ran back to the hospital to feed him dinner. Then I went home and spent my evenings make our home accessible, for the hoped-for day he would be released from hospital and come home.

Yes, I remember you telling me that before. I spent every waking moment with my husband when he was in the hospital, whenever the nurses would allow me to visit.

Now, I care for him. I'm 74 and he's not yet 62, but I do all the work -- shopping, cooking, laundry, cleaning. In Canada, I could have the government send somebody to do that, for free. I don't. I do it. I do it for love.

Been there done that, shopping, cooking, laundry, cleaning, so I understand. This is what we do when we love someone.

So, what is your "evidence" that my relationship is wrong or evil? Come on, let's hear it. I confess, I'm desperate to hear it because right now I am so fracking angry I can't stand it.

Surprise, surprise! I do not believe that your relationship with your partner is wrong or evil, I believe it is loving and good.

So, just as a favour to me. Your evidence about how homosexuality, as I've practiced it for 30 years, is wrong.

Don't come knocking on my door, I did not write any scripture. Love is never wrong.

 

[CG Didymus]

Christ only had twelve disciples mostly uneducated fishermen. Muhammad only a handful. Give it time, IF Baha’u’llah is of the same ilk then in time it will have a similar effect.

What were some of the things that caused Islam and Christianity to spread? Wasn't part of it by force?

 

[CG Didymus]

Anyone with enough money who had the intellectual honesty to want to either know if Baha'u'llah was truly a Manifestation of the all-Knowing or prove it to others would.

It is a sign of subconsciously not wanting to know the truth that leads one to shirk there responsibility to it.


There is nothing dishonest about transmuting elements.


You are not putting 2+2 together to get 4, Baha'u'llah claimed to reveal the will of God and said all you have to do is ask it of God, Baha'u'llah has already provided the answer for those who seek it. He said, 'consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 121-160

So it is no longer a secret, all a person has to do is keep a small amount of copper molten in its mine molten for seventy years. Its not rocket science.

But it is ok, I understand, you dont want Baha'u'llah proven to be a fraud as you do not care for the truth.

In my opinion.

But would it matter? True believers will find a way to explain it. Like when Jesus said he was coming soon. "Well, he meant sooner or later". Or when Baha'u'llah said that Noah preached his message for 950 years. (Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call.) "Actually, he meant lunar years". Always a way out.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Abrahamic religions and their homophobic bigotry are the problem here. The Baha'i accepting it uncritically and refusing to repudiate it when promoting their religion are vectors for the problem. The rest are defending decent people living lawfully while trying to make ends meet and make their communities better places from these religions and their pernicious homophobic dogma. It's obviously not a negotiable point for either side in this discussion. The Baha'i will not disavow their scripture, and the rest will call them on its immorality and their moral weakness for accepting it uncritically and even defending it.

Again, all the Baha'is have to do is show how their beliefs are supported by science. It is their teachings that say if it isn't supported by science, it is superstition.

Religious teaching which is at variance with science and reason is human invention and imagination unworthy of acceptance, for the antithesis and opposite of knowledge is superstition born of the ignorance of man. If we say religion is opposed to science, we lack knowledge of either true science or true religion, for both are founded upon the premises and conclusions of reason, and both must bear its test.”(quoted from The Promulgation of Universal Peace[14][15])

Religion and science are the two wings upon which man’s intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism.(quoting Paris Talks [4][16])
​

 

[CG Didymus]

That is why so many billions have become changed when they read the Bible, Quran, Gita or Words of Baha’u’llah.

Changed to what? Each religion that believes and follows any of those Scriptures, believe very different things. A couple of examples that even Baha'is disagree on. Christians that believe Jesus is God and believe Satan is real. Hindus that believe Krishna is an incarnation of Vishnu and believe in other Gods as being real. Lots of people have believed those things and have been changed. But the Baha'i Faith says those things aren't true. So, what can we learn from that? Beliefs in things that aren't true can change people.

 

[CG Didymus]

Please report bullying to the mods.

How ironic is that? Gays have been attacked, bullied and scorned for who knows how long. And the Baha'is feel bullied, attacked and insulted for believing that homosexuality is abnormal.

 

[Truthseeker]

The Baha'i claim was the Krishna was the founder of Hinduism. Is that true? Or was he pointing out a belief that some Baha'is held that was wrong?

No, whoever said that was wrong.

Hindu Religion

"...The origins of this and many other religions that abound in India are not quite known to us and even the Orientalists and the students of religions are not in complete accord about the results of their investigations in that field. The Bahá'í writings also do not refer specifically to any of these forms of religion current in India. So, the Guardian feels it impossible to give you any definite and detailed information on that subject. He would urge you however, to carry on your studies in that field, although its immensity is well-nigh bewildering with the view of bringing the Message to the Hindus..."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi" Dawn of a New Day, p. 198)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 502)

And it could just as easily be said that Baha'is are anti-Hindu, although they claim to believe it is a true and revealed religion from God. Yet, name one Hindu sect that Baha'is believe are teaching the truth from God?

We are not anti-Hindu. Not seeing things eye to eye in the same way doesn't make us anti-Hindu. Baha'is themselves among ourselves don't se things the same way always. We believe in unity in diversity just as Hindus do in the Hindu faith.

So, to not be "anti-Baha'i", would be for them to admit that they and their religion is wrong. Instead, what happens? People in other religions point out the things they believe are wrong about the Baha'i Faith. What else should we or could we expect?

That's not true at all. Being anti-Baha'i means being hostile to what we teach, not disagreeing with what we teach.

 

[F1fan]

I agree.

And what is it that Baha'is believe and accept about any of the other religions? Only what the Baha'i Faith says is true about the other religions. It's not that Baha'is believe what the other religions say and teach about themselves.

In Hinduism and Buddhism, what do Baha'is believe to be the God revealed Scriptures of those religions? And I always ask Baha's, what about the religions of other cultures and people? Like the Egyptian, Greek or Aztec religion? With some of these other religions, I would think, that even Baha'is would say they are false and nothing but myth. Is that correct or do you really believe in "all" religions?

I can see the utility of a religion being oen to what other religions say, esvecially the greatest hits. What I find odd is how rigid Bahai are about their own texts being FROM God, and exclusive. This discussion has revealed the leadership can't change anything, yet they can adopt the texts of other religions?

 

[CG Didymus]

Here's a scholarly book, claiming to be the first of its kind, on the subject. That is, is anyone is interested.

https://www.amazon.com/I-dont-want-be-Tāhirih/dp/3732316548/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8#customerReviews

I haven't seen any comments by any of the Baha'is on the recent videos that were linked to. So, the people we hope would be interested, probably aren't. So much for not being biased.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you stick with this ^^, I think you'll notice a lot less criticism. Once you claim homosexuality is unnatural, or abnormal, or an affliction, or immoral, or ( my favorite ) disgusting then you have completely contradicted yourself, and it reflects poorly on you and your faith.

You said: "Im not to judge. My job if you want to call it that is to show love and kindness to all," Labeling homosexuality as unnatural, abnormal, immoral, etc is a function of your judgement. Labeling homosexuality as disgusting is not showing love and kindness.

You make this idea of love and kindness look like a marketing slogan. Nothing real.

We all express ourselves differently. That’s diversity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think you should stay ... read, listen, think, evaluate, hear, empathize.

Thanks. Much appreciated.