Homosexuality and religious.

[loverofhumanity]

Are there any adulterers, fornicators, masturbaters, porn watchers etc that are Baha'is? Probably. But probably they keep their sexual behavior a secret. So is homosexuality done in private, okay? That way they can live their Baha'i life as if they are "normal". And keep their "forbidden" behavior secret.

Our private lives are between us and God. We all have shortcomings so if we banished everyone who wasn’t perfect there would be no Baha’is.

 

[CG Didymus]

I personally reserve any conclusions until there is more science and people start considering the wisdom of God's Laws.

Regards Tony

Yes, and Christians tried to make their Scriptures the absolute truth. Did science prove them right or wrong? Even with something like evolution, the Baha'i Faith side with evolutionary scientists and believe the Bible is wrong.

 

[CG Didymus]

All working together without racial, religious or national hindrances

The LSA's that I saw had lots of issues. There were some Baha'is more equal than others. So, at best, it was a work in progress.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Convince me that an unchallengable authority is a good idea.

This isn't a fair comparrison. The Baha'i are united because they're Baha'i. The only way to use them as an example, "See we did it, so can you", if if the world community is expected ( covertly ) to all convert to Baha'i. You and others have repeated over and over this is not the goal, that it's not required. But that could be a little white lie passed down from above that is being echoed by the general population of the cause. ( Do you see how damaging it is that the UHJ lied about the status of women? )

He can't be the Jewish Messiah or the incarnation of the Lord of Hosts without knowledge of Hebrew. It is evident from his interpretation of Isaiah 11 shows that, if I recall.

erm. I'm both happy and sad for you.

Well, sure. There was never any doubt. It's easy to predict. Insult everyone, everyone opposes. ... next?

Unchallengeable authority. I think we already have it today on a local and state level. 9ne commits a crime the police arrive. An arrest is made. A court hearing then sentence or acquittal. I think that can be applied on an international scale. Just a widening of what we already have with due process always included not dictatorial.

Yes the House of Justice did offer the Baha’i Community as a model.

The experience of the Bahá’í community may be seen as an example of this enlarging unity. It is a community of some three to four million people drawn from many nations, cultures, classes and creeds, engaged in a wide range of activities serving the spiritual, social and economic needs of the peoples of many lands. It is a single social organism, representative of the diversity of the human family, conducting its affairs through a system of commonly accepted consultative principles, and cherishing equally all the great outpourings of divine guidance in human history. Its existence is yet another convincing proof of the practicality of its Founder’s vision of a united world, another evidence that humanity can live as one global society, equal to whatever challenges its coming of age may entail. If the Bahá’í experience can contribute in whatever measure to reinforcing hope in the unity of the human race, we are happy to offer it as a model for study.

Yes there will be those who oppose there always has been like with Moses and Pharoah. But Moses prevailed in the end.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The LSA's that I saw had lots of issues. There were some Baha'is more equal than others. So, at best, it was a work in progress.

Yes we are still learning and I hope will never stop trying to become better.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, and Christians tried to make their Scriptures the absolute truth. Did science prove them right or wrong? Even with something like evolution, the Baha'i Faith side with evolutionary scientists and believe the Bible is wrong.

The Bible is not wrong but the question is is it speaking about evolution or progressive revelation? According to Abdul-Baha, The seven days of creation are referring to divine days, (a day is a thousand years) the day in which a manifestation arises. And there have been about seven manifestations since the time of Adam. So Although interpretations differ the Baha’i’s believe that the Bible is true .

 

[F1fan]

Yes true we aren’t gods.

Good for you. So you admit you could be mistaken in your religious beliefs?

But we believe that there is another method of learning which gives certain knowledge that is not error prone nor of the mind.

OK, explain the method and how it is reliable. And then what sort of knowledge is it, and can it be verified via reason and facts? Show us.

Im always glad to receive responses positive or negative but Baha’is are not prejudiced against gays. All Baha’u’llah speaks of is the actual sexual act.

A natural act for gays, and it is prohibited. Why? Thus far it is only because fallible people, like yourself, have deiced Baha'u'llah was telling the truth, which can't be verified and confimed, and no God coming forth to prove you all correct. So it comes down to you believers and your judgments, and you go along with it. It is still your moral judgment. So explain why you defend it.

Sorry if I missed a post. I’ve been answering many and some are disappearing from alerts so it’s possible I missed it, But the Baha’i writings are so extensive that I could almost answer all questions without using my own words.

For the most part the words are irrelevant because you Bahai claim the authorioty comes from a God you can;t demonstrate exists, and from a Messenger that is dead. Some have pointed out errors in the text that science has shown since the 19th century. So there is a case against the texts being from a God, and none to verify it came from a God. We follow the evidence, and make appropriate judgments. This is why thinkers aren't convinced.

 

[dybmh]

Where in the Gita does it say Krishna is a manifestation?

I read this as maninfestation.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Where in the Gita does it say Krishna is a manifestation?

He becomes a Manifestation once He manifests Himself on earth.

Gita 4:7-8

Whenever dharma declines and the purpose of life is forgotten, I manifest myself on earth. I am born in every age to protect the good, to destroy evil, and to reestablish dharma.

 

[CG Didymus]

Our private lives are between us and God. We all have shortcomings so if we banished everyone who wasn’t perfect there would be no Baha’is.

Exactly, I'd imagine most all of us do things in our private lives that offends the Baha'i God. Even Baha'is. But the gays are tired of not being able to live their lives out in the open. The Baha'i law does nothing but keeps some gays from joining the Faith... It gets some of those that join the Faith in trouble... And it will send others back into hiding and living their gay life in secret. It won't stop it.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes we are still learning and I hope will never stop trying to become better.

But this makes it sound like everything is rosy.

All working together without racial, religious or national hindrances

 

[loverofhumanity]

Good for you. So you admit you could be mistaken in your religious beliefs?


OK, explain the method and how it is reliable. And then what sort of knowledge is it, and can it be verified via reason and facts? Show us.


A natural act for gays, and it is prohibited. Why? Thus far it is only because fallible people, like yourself, have deiced Baha'u'llah was telling the truth, which can't be verified and confimed, and no God coming forth to prove you all correct. So it comes down to you believers and your judgments, and you go along with it. It is still your moral judgment. So explain why you defend it.


For the most part the words are irrelevant because you Bahai claim the authorioty comes from a God you can;t demonstrate exists, and from a Messenger that is dead. Some have pointed out errors in the text that science has shown since the 19th century. So there is a case against the texts being from a God, and none to verify it came from a God. We follow the evidence, and make appropriate judgments. This is why thinkers aren't convinced.

Not true. They are your words. I am certain about Baha’u’llah.

What I said is that the human mind errs but that there is another method beyond the human mind which can acquire true and infallible knowledge. But it comes from God and as you do not believe in God then you cannot perceive this method as you have confined yourself to the limitations of critical thinking.

4 Ways of Knowing According to the Baha'i Teachings

 

[dybmh]

Unchallengeable authority. I think we already have it today on a local and state level. 9ne commits a crime the police arrive. An arrest is made. A court hearing then sentence or acquittal. I think that can be applied on an international scale. Just a widening of what we already have with due process always included not dictatorial.

No, what we have ( in America ) on the state and local level is not "unchallengable authority". Also, the justice system is it exists in America is far from perfect. Expanding it globally would magnify its faults globally. Bad idea.

Any other reasons I should trust the Baha'i Unchallengeable International Executive Authority?

Yes the House of Justice did offer the Baha’i Community as a model.

Then... yes, the entire population of the globe is expected to convert to Baha'i, if the entire population of the globe is expected to be united like Baha'i?

Yes there will be those who oppose there always has been like with Moses and Pharoah. But Moses prevailed in the end.

The quote read: " ... One and all, they shall arise with all their power to resist His Cause."
That's pretty major. Are you sure you want to claim this as true prophecy?

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible is not wrong but the question is is it speaking about evolution or progressive revelation? According to Abdul-Baha, The seven days of creation are referring to divine days, (a day is a thousand years) the day in which a manifestation arises. And there have been about seven manifestations since the time of Adam. So Although interpretations differ the Baha’i’s believe that the Bible is true .

When you say, "Bible" I assume you mean the Christian version of the Bible. And we've already discussed that. Two major things that the NT is wrong about, that Satan is real, and that Jesus resurrected.

But, as I already said in another post, this seven manifestations thing is way off. There have been "about" seven manifestations since the time of Adam? Why leave off Abraham? But then how many other incarnations of Vishnu have there been? Why start with and only acknowledge Krishna? Why aren't the incarnations that came before him counted? Anyway, I just given you a hard time, because I know the answer... It doesn't fit the interpretation and the point that Abdul Baha' was trying to make.

Which reminds me how Baha'u'llah says that it was Ishmael, not Isaac, that was taken by Abraham. Which clearly contradicts the Bible. So, Baha'is downplay it. It's that teflon thing going on... Baha'is don't want some things to stick to them. Like their attitude towards homosexuals. They what to just move on and talk about other things. And it wouldn't be as big a deal if Baha'is didn't think their beliefs were the infallible truth from God. And that's what is being demanded... If Baha'is claim it is the infallible truth, then prove it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Exactly, I'd imagine most all of us do things in our private lives that offends the Baha'i God. Even Baha'is. But the gays are tired of not being able to live their lives out in the open. The Baha'i law does nothing but keeps some gays from joining the Faith... It gets some of those that join the Faith in trouble... And it will send others back into hiding and living their gay life in secret. It won't stop it.

Currently yes because of the condition of society. Shoghi Effendi said it’s not difficult to obey Baha’i laws it’s only difficult because it’s so different from what society teaches.
I believe that over time humanity will change its views about many things and we can see that happening already. The non smoking laws. Once doctors promoted smoking. So it’s now banned everywhere. Drinking and gambling are also being targeted by society as unhealthy. Meat eating is another.

For some complying with society is very important but Shoghi Effendi said that the pendulum would swing back towards religion so these issues such as homosexuality I believe will be non issues in the future.

 

[dybmh]

The claim is that Baha'u'llah is the Messiah. So, do the prophecies say that the Messiah will come from Persia, be banished and end up in Akka as a prisoner, start a new religion, then die? Oh, and never set foot in Jerusalem?

starting a new religion is the deal breaker here

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes there will be those who oppose there always has been like with Moses and Pharoah. But Moses prevailed in the end.

And do you believe that story literally? Which Pharoah was it? Did those plagues really happen? Did the sea part and then come back together and drown the Egyptian army? Did Moses' cane turn into a snake?

Of course, you don't. Why and how could God turn a piece of wood into a snake. How could the seas part and then come back together? And those plagues? Forget about it. It was just religious myth, wasn't it? Yet, Baha'is quote some of it as real, and say other things, that don't fit their beliefs, symbolic.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No, what we have ( in America ) on the state and local level is not "unchallengable authority". Also, the justice system is it exists in America is far from perfect. Expanding it globally would magnify its faults globally. Bad idea.

Any other reasons I should trust the Baha'i Unchallengeable International Executive Authority?

Then... yes, the entire population of the globe is expected to convert to Baha'i, if the entire population of the globe is expected to be united like Baha'i?

The quote read: " ... One and all, they shall arise with all their power to resist His Cause."
That's pretty major. Are you sure you want to claim this as true prophecy?

The world and its people would have to decide on what style of global governance was most suitable. Baha’is recommend a consultative style. This body will NOT be a Baha’i body or have any Baha’i membership on it.

The International Executive is NOT a Baha’i body but one chosen or elected by the people of the world. Nothing to do with the Baha’i Faith.

I won’t be around to witness that but if you think about it. Future Baha’i societies and nations no pubs, night clubs, no alcohol, no gambling casinos. Other religions aside who might leave to join us, the gambling and alcohol industry are going to go berserk. Then there is lack of a massive military budget. Baha’i countries won’t be good for arms sales. And if Baha’is find natural cures for diseases? The pharmaceutical companies will oppose Baha’is. Not to mention homosexual lobbies.

But we won’t be taken seriously until like with Constantine, a king or great leader becomes a Baha’i. For now we are the new kid on the block so are getting a good initiation.

 

[CG Didymus]

starting a new religion is the deal breaker here

Because of their belief in the manifestations, to them, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah were all, in a way, the Jewish Messiah. But Baha'u'llah they make the promised return of everybody that was ever promised to return from all the other major religions.

But you're right about making a new religion being a deal breaker, because I don't see how anything meaningful from the other religions is even necessary once a person becomes a Baha'i. Everything they believe and do religiously and spiritually is all going to be what the Baha'i Faith says to do. It replaces all the other religions.

 

[CG Didymus]

The International Executive is NOT a Baha’i body but one chosen or elected by the people of the world. Nothing to do with the Baha’i Faith.

Like the major world powers are going to let this happen? And there won't voter fraud? Or accusations of voter fraud? And who's going to enforce these laws?

Future Baha’i societies and nations no pubs, night clubs, no alcohol, no gambling casinos. Other religions aside who might leave to join us, the gambling and alcohol industry are going to go berserk. Then there is lack of a massive military budget. Baha’i countries won’t be good for arms sales. And if Baha’is find natural cures for diseases? The pharmaceutical companies will oppose Baha’is. Not to mention homosexual lobbies.

Yeah, prohibit alcohol, casinos and night clubs. What possibly could go wrong with a religion imposing its laws on society. And don't tell me all people will want it. At best a majority, but will they be able to enforce their laws on those that want to drink and party?