Homosexuality and religious.

[Vinayaka]

Women are not excluded from membership on any Baha’i committee or elected or appointed positions. Only the House of Justice. We are told that it will become clear in the future so for now we don’t know.

The House of Justice, however, according to the explicit text of the Law of God, is confined to men; this for a wisdom of the Lord God's which will ere long be made manifest as clearly as the sun at high noon. (Selections from the writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá (rev. ed.) Haifa: Bahá'í World Center, 1982), p. 80)


Though at the present time, it may be difficult for the believers to appreciate the reason for the circumscription of membership on the Universal House of Justice to men, we call upon the friends to remain assured by the Master's promise that clarity of understanding will be achieved in due course. The friends, both women and men, must accept this with faith that the Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh will aid them and the institutions of His World Order to see the realization of every principle ordained by His unerring Pen, including the equality of men and women, as expounded in the Writings of the Cause.



The Universal House of Justice

Just when and how do you think it could be clear that this isn't discrimination? What scenario could you possibly have in mind? I can't imagine any scenario whatsoever that would make it clear as to the reasons. Can you?

 

[loverofhumanity]

OK, this is where my bovine excrement detector starts going off...

The emancipation of women, the achievement of full equality between the sexes, is one of the most important, though less acknowledged prerequisites of peace. The denial of such equality perpetrates an injustice against one half of the world’s population and promotes in men harmful attitudes and habits that are carried from the family to the workplace, to political life, and ultimately to international relations. There are no grounds, moral, practical, or biological, upon which such denial can be justified. Only as women are welcomed into full partnership in all fields of human endeavour will the moral and psychological climate be created in which international peace can emerge.

Section II Paragraph 9 - The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice
​

This was written in 1985, long before women were allowed on the UHJ.

I wish to personally commend you for setting such a wonderful example on RF. For years we are used to receiving peoples doubts and criticisms but like with Muslims people would just condemn us.

In your instance you are reading then quoting an original Baha’i text and questioning it and I feel that is most just and fair and of a much higher quality of debate than just empty criticism.

I really hope others here will follow your example by reading and then quoting and questioning. I don’t mind at all criticism or that people don’t agree but I really like the civil way you are doing it. God bless .

 

[dybmh]

The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men.”

This peace plan is speaking about political peace which is possible to establish but not without adherence to the laws of God which are mentioned in the letter.

The teaching and law of God for this age is the oneness of humankind so that all are considered equal citizens of one planet. Only by accepting our oneness can we hope to establish peace. This is the law of God for this age.

Another prerequisite for establishing peace is another teaching or law of God.

The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men.”

Without such a world gathering no agreement can be reached.

Other of God’s laws are disarmament and you can find many more pertinent laws of God necessary to establish peace in that document.

It doesn’t mean they must obey Baha’u’llah just that humanity, in order to solve its problems needs to reestablish its identity as ‘world citizens’ as equal members of the human race.

It seems like you're saying that adherence to some of God's law was responsible for the progress acheived? Yes?

 

[rational experiences]

We are born from sperm ovary.

First two humans adults parents conscious healers innate were the same family paired human DNA.

Same parents for all humans. First.

You would hence ask how could that be possible. Unless they had emerged out of a place of spirit as the same base type of body.

Seeing earths minerals bases are minerals. Water mass is just water mass. And oxygen is oxygen. Yet biology billions of types seem to share a common ancestry.

Seeing all living bio life is mainly water living bio bodies exact owned and oxygenated?

So eternal body does own that status in teaching. Parents however are the first. Sacrificed life of humans caused.

Baby life mind proves it lost its parent memory. By sexual behaviour.

As we come out of microbial sperm...microbial ovary. Not any conscious human.

We know mutual brother sister were our first parents.

Owning title a brother a sister. Had sex. Became a father a mother by baby two of birth. Natural science non arguable.

Correct only teaching.

So our mind says law in our holy water oxygen generated body heavens mass is mutual. Genetalia is advised. It's inherited bodily. Exact in law of nature. Hormonal bio type genetalia owner.

For that expression from sperm ovary bodies...microbe not to know itself anymore proves the heavens mass has changed. Parent life body heavenly imaged recorded.

Therefore we said we live consciously taught by our parents first life. Recorded order is memory.

Humans prove a body mass has been sacrificed above to no longer support natural human consciousness.

It's a teaching why it was caused...natural laws changed.

Then all it takes is to view how much DNA destroyed now hurt is being expressed to quote the origin parent life is nearly gone.

We said only two origin parent pairs lived in DNA who still existed. The sexual inherited pairs were three by inheritance only sex.

As ancient proof that taught when earths atmospheric mass was sacrificed life was nearly eradicated. As was natural aware consciousness.

Proof it's gone and eradicated our spirit body mass. Gas heavens above.

No scientist ever knew how much gas mass should exist above us as the heavens.

However change its presence as a mass body....space pressures change. Natural disasters increase and become the new constant life attack just as we are observing.

Proof.

As science cannot measure space nor mass as one and never had....they own the satanic human anti Christ destroyer human warnings via science with machine removing the planets mass presence.

We always knew why. It's only rich man's evil life takeover that gave just humans the unnatural position to choose anything they like to practice. Whenever they like. Including human death.

Why science was termed the destroyer as it is proven that it is.

 

[dybmh]

Women are not excluded from membership on any Baha’i committee or elected or appointed positions. Only the House of Justice. We are told that it will become clear in the future so for now we don’t know.

The House of Justice, however, according to the explicit text of the Law of God, is confined to men; this for a wisdom of the Lord God's which will ere long be made manifest as clearly as the sun at high noon. (Selections from the writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá (rev. ed.) Haifa: Bahá'í World Center, 1982), p. 80)


Though at the present time, it may be difficult for the believers to appreciate the reason for the circumscription of membership on the Universal House of Justice to men, we call upon the friends to remain assured by the Master's promise that clarity of understanding will be achieved in due course. The friends, both women and men, must accept this with faith that the Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh will aid them and the institutions of His World Order to see the realization of every principle ordained by His unerring Pen, including the equality of men and women, as expounded in the Writings of the Cause.



The Universal House of Justice

My friend, "full equality", "full partnership", "in all fields" means inclusion on the UHJ. This is deliberate dishonesty in this document. It's virtually unforgiveable. Any statement in the peace plan is now of questionable fidelity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Some form of a world super-state must needs be evolved, in whose favour all the nations of the world will have willingly ceded every claim to make war, certain rights to impose taxation and all rights to maintain armaments, except for purposes of maintaining internal order within their respective dominions. Such a state will have to include within its orbit an International Executive adequate to enforce supreme and unchallengeable authority on every recalcitrant member of the commonwealth; a World Parliament whose members shall be elected by the people in their respective countries and whose election shall be confirmed by their respective governments; and a Supreme Tribunal whose judgement will have a binding effect even in such cases where the parties concerned did not voluntarily agree to submit their case to its consideration.

Section III Paragragh 7 - The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice
​

Reminds me of:

View attachment 67656

Firstly, it has to be decided by the entire world. Next we already have formed the international tribunal I think in the ICC but not all nations have submitted to its authority especially dictatorships and regimes committing war crimes. But the object is to prevent another or many Hitlers from arising and establish human rights worldwide.

I would phrase it more simply: Any authoritarian dictator can deliver peace and harmony with an iron fist and the world's resources at its disposal.

Yes, the final battle is an archetype. It has crept its way into the hearts and minds of many authors.

Who's messiah? The Jewish people are on their own path as God intended.

But it's not a plan unless it says "How".

Not at all. I looked at the entire document objectively. I looked for both advantages and disadvantages. They're nice ideas with very little concrete. That's an objective critcism which has nothing to do with Baha'u'llah's claimed station.

But, there is a problem with claiming to be the promised one of all religions, both past, present, and future. Without proof of this eternal divinity, the individual making the claim will be immediately ignored by most as a lunatic.

If Baha'u'llah prioritized world harmony, peace, and unity, he should have completely avoided any assertions of his station. The ideas should speak for themselves. He should have known that the claims of status would undermine and distract from the efforts for world peace.

I hope you don’t mind me commenting but on the contrary. The real unifying issue that has the true potential to create world brotherhood is His Station as the Promised One. Reflect that as people discover He is their promised one what will be the result? Already we have a world community, then world brotherhood then world civilisation.

True, as you said. Baha’u’llah must establish His credentials as the Promised One. And that is happening daily. As the Baha’i Cause grows, the public will investigate these claims. That’s when the truth will come out and religious orthodoxy worldwide will oppose His gaining popularity. But until then only a few lucky ones are finding out the truth because they don’t think it’s impossible.

This is the claim.


“To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the "Everlasting Father," the "Lord of Hosts" come down "with ten thousands of saints"; to Christendom Christ returned "in the glory of the Father," to Shí'ah Islám the return of the Imám Husayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the "Spirit of God" (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.”

God Passes By
Shoghi Effendi

Let him be aware that so soon as the full measure of the stupendous claim of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh becomes to be recognized by those time-honoured and powerful strongholds of orthodoxy, whose deliberate aim is to maintain their stranglehold over the thoughts and consciences of men, that this infant Faith will have to contend with enemies more powerful and more insidious than the cruellest torture-mongers and the most fanatical clerics who have afflicted it in the past.

How great, how very great is the Cause! How very fierce the onslaught of all the peoples and kindreds of the earth. Ere long shall the clamor of the multitude throughout Africa, throughout America, the cry of the European and of the Turk, the groaning of India and China, be heard from far and near. One and all, they shall arise with all their power to resist His Cause.

 

[F1fan]

Beyond stating once again that as a Manifestation of God we believe Baha’u’llah is correct,

You aren't gods, so you could be in error in making this judgment, right?

I have nothing to add except that your accusations cannot not harm us.

I posted observations, not accusations. You Bahai admit you are prejudiced against gays, I make no accusation about something you admit.

I asked questions that you can't answer. So how well is Bahai working for you? If you have a real God on your side, why can't you answer my questions?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do Baha'is believe any of the other Scriptures of any of the other religions is 100% right? As I recall, it is only the Baha'i writing and maybe the Quran? And just to be sure, do Baha'is believe the Quran is totally and completely accurate and is the "word of God"?

Myself I possess copies of most of the Holy Books of the major faiths and I love them all. I believe the spiritual teachings are 100% right. Of course the Quran is the Word of God so there is no mistake or error. All the holy books teach beautiful spiritual truths, virtues and character transformation. I subscribe to daily Buddhist quotes and they are all truth.

How could I not call this truth?

One by one, little by little, moment by moment,
a wise one should remove one's own impurities,
as a smith removes dross from silver.

Dhammapada 18.239

 

[Vinayaka]

Myself I possess copies of most of the Holy Books of the major faiths and I love them all. I believe the spiritual teachings are 100% right. Of course the Quran is the Word of God so there is no mistake or error. All the holy books teach beautiful spiritual truths, virtues and character transformation. I subscribe to daily Buddhist quotes and they are all truth.

How could I not call this truth?

One by one, little by little, moment by moment,
a wise one should remove one's own impurities,
as a smith removes dross from silver.

Dhammapada 18.239

Where in the Gita does it say Krishna is a manifestation?

 

[F1fan]

They don't see it as bigotry.

Yet by definition it is bigotry, because the Bahai law condemns gays for their natural being and freedom of sexual relations. If Bahai said the same about blue-eyed people it would be bigotry as well, because the prejudice is applied due to a natural state of a person's being.


They see it, along with adultery, fornication, prostitution and other similar sexual things, as something deviant, abnormal... behavior that must not be tolerated and must be stopped.[/quote]
Who says what isn't right? Society. Some counties in Nevada have allowed legal prostitution. Is oral sex deviant? Some think so. Why? By your way of thinking it is deviant for gays to have sex, something they are naturally inclined to do as part of normal human behavior.

Guys doing sexual things to each other, and woman playing and fondling each other Baha'is believe is wrong and is something that God forbids.

It's something they BELIEVE their God forbits. Thus far no God has been demonstrated as existing, and the Messenger has not been verified as being authentic. So it is all built on a series of implauisble assumptions. Remember, all belief is uncertain. No belief is fact.

Along with playing with oneself and having premarital sex. What are we... animals?

We are animals, yes. And we have many primal drives and desires. Many of these are sexual and feel good. They harm no one in consenting relations. Most all humans engage in premarital sex, and if there was a prohobition on this it would be violated by most.

Now excuse me, I have to take a cold shower. I never should have mentioned woman fondling each other.

Well you didn't say where they fondled each other, so I have to use my own imagination.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Then what's wrong with them? Why do they want to have sex with people of the same gender? What do Baha'is believe is the cause of that? And has the therapies that the Baha'is recommend work to make gays in "normal" straight people?

As people there is nothing wrong with gays or lesbians or others. They are people like you and I. Baha’u’llah speaks of the behaviour or sexual act. I understand that I do things out of love and so whatever is asked of me by a friend or my wife I do out of love. The same applies to the laws of God. ‘Observe My commandments for the love of My Beauty’. Is what He says. So one joins voluntarily and out of love wants to obey. If one does not feel this connection to God and Baha’u’llah then one should not become a Baha’i.

 

[Vinayaka]

As people there is nothing wrong with gays or lesbians or others. They are people like you and I. Baha’u’llah speaks of the behaviour or sexual act. I understand that I do things out of love and so whatever is asked of me by a friend or my wife I do out of love. The same applies to the laws of God. ‘Observe My commandments for the love of My Beauty’. Is what He says. So one joins voluntarily and out of love wants to obey. If one does not feel this connection to God and Baha’u’llah then one should not become a Baha’i.

As people there is nothing wrong with Baha'is or others. We speak of the behavior of homophobia. If one does not want to join with the rest of civilised society and accept people for who they are, then you shouldn't. One joins with civilised society if they want to demonstrate love for all mankind. But it's your choice not to join us.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yeah, so don't harm them like God had commanded in other religions, which included killing them. But, for Baha'is, which is the teaching and laws of God supposedly, they cannot be allowed to continue in that "abnormal" behavior. They should get help to overcome their "affliction".

And is there a God like the one that Baha'is believe in? There is good reason to question and doubt the Gods and Goddesses of all the religions of the past. Everything about the Gods and the different religions has varied enough to ask, "Are any of these religions and their Gods real? Baha'is show a consistency on the most basic and general beliefs. But once a person gets into studying religion, they learn just how different all of them are. Almost like people in different places and times and in different cultures made up their own Gods and religions to suit themselves and their society. Like I'd guess that the Greek religion had no problem with homosexuality.

They only have to try and uphold Baha’i laws if they are Baha’is. If they do not like these laws they do not have to join or be Baha’is.

I’ve studied deeply other religions and find there are two main parts. The spiritual teachings all agree with each other. The laws however on things like crime, marriage diet etc vary from age to age and culture to culture. So to me there is no real contradiction. For example with Jesus it was love one another, with Muhammad love ones country and with Baha’u’llah love all humankind.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Baha’i writings say that the 7 days refers to Divine Days (a day as a thousand years) which is the Days that a new Prophet of God appears. Since Adam there have been about seven Great Teachers. Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad and the Bab.

Who are you addressing this to?[/QUOTE]

Sorry I must have mis posted this to you. I can’t delete it either.

 

[CG Didymus]

Who's messiah? The Jewish people are on their own path as God intended.

The claim is that Baha'u'llah is the Messiah. So, do the prophecies say that the Messiah will come from Persia, be banished and end up in Akka as a prisoner, start a new religion, then die? Oh, and never set foot in Jerusalem?

 

[loverofhumanity]

It seems like you're saying that adherence to some of God's law was responsible for the progress acheived? Yes?

Unconscious adherence. For example there are a lot of movements today regarding various issues where the original concept can often be traced back to a law of God that became an idea that spread, and then became rebranded by people and used as an idea of man.

 

[CG Didymus]

They only have to try and uphold Baha’i laws if they are Baha’is. If they do not like these laws they do not have to join or be Baha’is.

I’ve studied deeply other religions and find there are two main parts. The spiritual teachings all agree with each other. The laws however on things like crime, marriage diet etc vary from age to age and culture to culture. So to me there is no real contradiction. For example with Jesus it was love one another, with Muhammad love ones country and with Baha’u’llah love all humankind.

Are there any adulterers, fornicators, masturbaters, porn watchers etc that are Baha'is? Probably. But probably they keep their sexual behavior a secret. So is homosexuality done in private, okay? That way they can live their Baha'i life as if they are "normal". And keep their "forbidden" behavior secret.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Baha’i writings say that the 7 days refers to Divine Days (a day as a thousand years) which is the Days that a new Prophet of God appears. Since Adam there have been about seven Great Teachers. Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad and the Bab.

Where did this come from? Okay, I found it. It was from Loverofhumanity. The problem... it leaves off Abraham. And sometimes Baha'is include Noah too. And is Adam even a real, historical person? But I guess it doesn't matter, because it is just another "symbolic" interpretation of the Baha'is. And they have proven themselves to be quite capable of making anybody's Scripture mean whatever necessary to fit the Baha'i Faith and its beliefs.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You aren't gods, so you could be in error in making this judgment, right?


I posted observations, not accusations. You Bahai admit you are prejudiced against gays, I make no accusation about something you admit.

I asked questions that you can't answer. So how well is Bahai working for you? If you have a real God on your side, why can't you answer my questions?

Yes true we aren’t gods. But we believe that there is another method of learning which gives certain knowledge that is not error prone nor of the mind.

Im always glad to receive responses positive or negative but Baha’is are not prejudiced against gays. All Baha’u’llah speaks of is the actual sexual act.

Sorry if I missed a post. I’ve been answering many and some are disappearing from alerts so it’s possible I missed it, But the Baha’i writings are so extensive that I could almost answer all questions without using my own words.

 

[dybmh]

Firstly, it has to be decided by the entire world. Next we already have formed the international tribunal I think in the ICC but not all nations have submitted to its authority especially dictatorships and regimes committing war crimes. But the object is to prevent another or many Hitlers from arising and establish human rights worldwide.

Convince me that an unchallengable authority is a good idea.

I hope you don’t mind me commenting but on the contrary. The real unifying issue that has the true potential to create world brotherhood is His Station as the Promised One. Reflect that as people discover He is their promised one what will be the result? Already we have a world community, then world brotherhood then world civilisation.

This isn't a fair comparrison. The Baha'i are united because they're Baha'i. The only way to use them as an example, "See we did it, so can you", if if the world community is expected ( covertly ) to all convert to Baha'i. You and others have repeated over and over this is not the goal, that it's not required. But that could be a little white lie passed down from above that is being echoed by the general population of the cause. ( Do you see how damaging it is that the UHJ lied about the status of women? )

True, as you said. Baha’u’llah must establish His credentials as the Promised One. And that is happening daily.

This is the claim.

“To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the "Everlasting Father," the "Lord of Hosts" come down "with ten thousands of saints";

God Passes By
Shoghi Effendi

He can't be the Jewish Messiah or the incarnation of the Lord of Hosts without knowledge of Hebrew. It is evident from his interpretation of Isaiah 11 shows that, if I recall.

Let him be aware that so soon as the full measure of the stupendous claim of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh becomes to be recognized by those time-honoured and powerful strongholds of orthodoxy, whose deliberate aim is to maintain their stranglehold over the thoughts and consciences of men, that this infant Faith will have to contend with enemies more powerful and more insidious than the cruellest torture-mongers and the most fanatical clerics who have afflicted it in the past.

erm. I'm both happy and sad for you.

How great, how very great is the Cause! How very fierce the onslaught of all the peoples and kindreds of the earth. Ere long shall the clamor of the multitude throughout Africa, throughout America, the cry of the European and of the Turk, the groaning of India and China, be heard from far and near. One and all, they shall arise with all their power to resist His Cause.

Well, sure. There was never any doubt. It's easy to predict. Insult everyone, everyone opposes. ... next?