Homosexuality and religious.

[F1fan]

Never mistake other peoples abilities in both science and religion to be reflecting the Will of God, which is virtues and morals.

There are no human abilities that can detect any gods, so your attempt to equate religious beliefs with science is not true.

True science benefits humanity as a whole and will no compromise Morals and Virtues

There is only science, to say “true science” suggests there is science you reject for some improper reason.

True religions also benefits humanity as a whole by setting the required Morals and virtues.

Then Bahai cant be called a “true religion” since it includes a significant immoral law.

Both are very prone to abuse. Both bad science and bad religion destroy humanity and are not looking at forming lasting bonds across the entire species of the human race. Both the negitive aspects abuse this planets resources and the life it contains.

Bigotry is abusive and destructive to people and society, so Bahai needs to change to no longer pose a threat. Then the members need to heal from adopting and defending bigotry. I wonder how you Bahai must feel stress knowing that most see you guys as immoral and a threat to society.

 

[F1fan]

The Message is the Balance humanity needs to find, it is the Justification.

Balance doesn’t include bigotry, nor targeting a class of people for being who they are.

The study of that Message, using justice, logic and reason, led me to that conclusion.

So you are satisfied that your religion is bigoted? How is it justice to condemn people who pose no threat? What logic is there that concludes you can harm people who are as they are?

If you have not studied what was offered, then you are not able to state that I offer no justification.

Yet non of you Bahai have articulated any moral, just, or logical reason to condemn gays. All you can offer is “It’s in the text”. And no reasonable person accepts a text as absolute ONLY because it says its absolute. That is circular reasoning. And it is immoral to suspend your own moral sense in service to dogma, to my mind. Why? Because people will do horrific acts in service to dogma regardless of the pain it inflicts.

You can chose to be uniformed and base your responses accordingly.

Irony.

 

[Vinayaka]

This fewness and slowness is predicted. The issues we have as humans, is our life is just a blink in time and we all would like to see peace in our time, yet we work under God's ultimate plan and God's time for that plan to unfold.

There is a time foretold where still with fewest of numbers, the world will rise as a whole to ridicule to Message given by Baha'u'llah.

I hope that will indicate why I am excited about this time, it appears more and more just want to do that, all the while quote how insignificant the Faith is in world affairs.

Maybe I will live in the very time that change happens, maybe I will not. All I can do is live what I share and let God plan the rest. That's all a Baha'i can do, be a light of peace and unity in a darkly divided world.

Edit for this quote.

“How great, how very great is the Cause! How very fierce the onslaught of all the peoples and kindreds of the earth. Ere long shall the clamor of the multitude throughout Africa, throughout America, the cry of the European and of the Turk, the groaning of India and China, be heard from far and near. One and all, they shall arise with all their power to resist His Cause. Then shall the knights of the Lord, assisted by His grace from on high, strengthened by faith, aided by the power of understanding, and reinforced by the legions of the Covenant, arise and make manifest the truth of the verse: ‘Behold the confusion that hath befallen the tribes of the defeated!’”
Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 17-18

Regards Tony

Thanks. You supported my statement about how it's going to happen, according to Bahai'. Of course these sorts of predictions come and go. I'm sure Hitler and other conquerors figured they were going to rule the world as well. At least the Baha'i figure, however illogically, it'll happen by talking, not by killing all the 'tribes', like the genocides and attempted genocides of the past. So there's that. Neither of us will see the likely disappearance nor the unlikely takeover.
It is interesting how he used 'fierce the onslaught' ... could easily be mistaken for violence.

 

[Vinayaka]

Aha. Tony just informed me I was mislead by a covenant breaker's website. thank you,

That's surprising, that Tony would have read such a 'despicable' thing. Personally, I read both (or more) sides, and use logic to decide which makes more sense. Some of the covenant breakers were once very sincere Baha'is who dared to question, like Dr. Cole. Many of the earliest covenant breakers were family members who disagreed with Baha'u'llah's self declaration. I like to go to many sources. The ex-Baha'i forum has provided me with much information.

 

[Vinayaka]

OK, I read it It's beefy, that's for sure. 6693 words intended to deliver World Peace. I went through it rather carefully and pulled quotes from anything that remotely resembled the elements of a plan for peace. After removing duplicate concepts, the result is a greatly diminished 241 words, 21 total elements in the plan.

Of those 21 elements, a little over half were attitude shifts either by the populace or the leadership. These items do not include any practical instructions how to adjust attitudes in this way. They are aspirations, or maybe required strategies for peace. But what's given isn't actionable.

The remaining 9 elements I found were at least functional recommendations that could be implemented. But out of 9 items, I find 4 objectionable and 1 irrelevent leaving 4 decent, somewhat common sense, ideas which would encourage more peace and harmony in the world.

I've included my objections in the list of "Practical Ideas" below:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A break down of elements recommended by the UHJ for world peace detailed to the UN and all nations, October 1985:​

Attitude shift:

1. a reassessment of the assumptions upon which the view of mankind’s predicament is based.
   
2. treat others as we ourselves would wish to be treated
   
3. glorification of material pursuits must be cleared
4. a fresh look at the disparity between rich and poor is required; consultation with experts and the people directly affected
5. racism is a major barrier to peace. recognition of the oneness of mankind,
   
6. women are welcomed into full partnership in all fields
   
7. unbridled nationalism must give way to love of humanity as a whole
8. all in authority identify spiritual principles to solve problems
   
9. religious leaders contemplate whether they submerge their theological differences in mutual forbearance
10. subordination of national interests to a unified world; It repudiates excessive centralization and all attempts at uniformity
    
11. the peace and well-being of all the world regarded as sacred
    
12. unity is firmly established

Practical ideas:

1. consult together in a united search for appropriate solutions
2. international activities which nurture mutual affection and a sense of solidarity among peoples greatly to be increased
3. universal education: giving first priority to women and girls; teaching world citizenship
4. adopting an international auxiliary language
   • irrelevent
5. abandonment of everything which enables people to consider themselves superior
   • abandoning "everything" is too much, no one will agree to this, a compromise is needed
6. demilitarization of the whole civilized world
7. a world unified in political machinery, spiritual aspiration, trade, finance, script, and language
   • united in spiritual aspiration is oppressive
8. a world super-state, in whose favour all nations have willingly ceded war, certain taxation, armaments except for internal order
   • the rights and protection of the minority cannot be guaranteed
   • all nations "willingly" agreeing to this is unrealistic, more compromise is needed
9. super-state will have a supreme-unchallengeable-International-Executive, a World Parliament, and a Supreme Tribunal
   • no humans are infallible, ordaining the Executive with infallible unchallengable power is a mistake

Good on you for taking all that time to assess. This what Tony keeps asking us to do. I personally have neither the interest nor the will.

 

[Vinayaka]

There are no human abilities that can detect any gods, so your attempt to equate religious beliefs with science is not true.


There is only science, to say “true science” suggests there is science you reject for some improper reason.


Then Bahai cant be called a “true religion” since it includes a significant immoral law.


Bigotry is abusive and destructive to people and society, so Bahai needs to change to no longer pose a threat. Then the members need to heal from adopting and defending bigotry. I wonder how you Bahai must feel stress knowing that most see you guys as immoral and a threat to society.

I don't see the Baha'i as a threat to society because they're so small, but I do see them as a threat to individuals who might be on the fence with regard to bigotry, and not wishing to think for themselves regarding religion. The last thing this world needs is more bigots and blind followers of dogma who put dogma over common sense even to the point of breaking country's laws.

 

[CG Didymus]

And what if Baha’u’llah is right?

Do Baha'is believe any of the other Scriptures of any of the other religions is 100% right? As I recall, it is only the Baha'i writing and maybe the Quran? And just to be sure, do Baha'is believe the Quran is totally and completely accurate and is the "word of God"?

 

[CG Didymus]

Thats ok. I accept that you believe differently. No problems. I think gay people are good people. They are always welcome in my home.

Then what's wrong with them? Why do they want to have sex with people of the same gender? What do Baha'is believe is the cause of that? And has the therapies that the Baha'is recommend work to make gays in "normal" straight people?

 

[CG Didymus]

I mean it’s approval. Adolescence admits extremes. Before homosexuality was outlawed now they’ve gone to the other extreme and are interfering with God’s laws and nature.

I believe that what the world will eventually settle on is that not to discriminate or harm a person with that orientation but that it’s not normal or natural and overturn gay marriage. I believe as humanity matures it will avoid both extremes and see homosexuality as an affliction which needs to be overcome. But we are still not there yet rebelling against God and His Messengers thinking we know better than God and if God does not bow down to our whims and desires then we say He doesn’t exist. Typical adolescent behaviour. Can’t get what one wants then rebel against mum and dad so to speak and kick up a fuss and tantrum.

Yeah, so don't harm them like God had commanded in other religions, which included killing them. But, for Baha'is, which is the teaching and laws of God supposedly, they cannot be allowed to continue in that "abnormal" behavior. They should get help to overcome their "affliction".

And is there a God like the one that Baha'is believe in? There is good reason to question and doubt the Gods and Goddesses of all the religions of the past. Everything about the Gods and the different religions has varied enough to ask, "Are any of these religions and their Gods real? Baha'is show a consistency on the most basic and general beliefs. But once a person gets into studying religion, they learn just how different all of them are. Almost like people in different places and times and in different cultures made up their own Gods and religions to suit themselves and their society. Like I'd guess that the Greek religion had no problem with homosexuality.

 

[CG Didymus]

Right, there's nothing like spiritual blackmail to realize the Bahai really believe in oneness. Seeing people completely absorbed in religious dogma is always a concern. It is interesting to watch the superficial kindness, yet over time we start to see the true darkness that lurks underneath. The fact that Bahai HAVE to accept bigotry as part of their ideology indicates a serious flaw in their being. That bigotry should be a deal breaker to any moral person.

So many of us have already gone through this by being brought up in some version of Christianity. Lots of spiritual blackmail in some of them. Don't believe right. Don't do right, then the person is told they will burn in hell for eternity.

What was appealing to me, 50 years ago, when I was first told about the Baha'i Faith, was that all that stuff about burning in hell and Satan was not real, but symbolic. Ends up that they're just another religion with their rules and doctrines and dogma. Not as bad as some of the others, but bad enough for me to question just how real it is. To me, it's just a liberal form of Islam.

 

[CG Didymus]

As regards to humanism I believe that no man however acute his knowledge and perception may be, can ever hope to reach the heights of wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician God. And that it is only through adherence to the laws of God for each age that humanity can progress and advance.

Maybe the Baha'i Faith is different. Maybe it's perfect. But which other religion looks even remotely perfect and reflecting an all-loving God? And, when some of us take a closer look, we include the Baha'i Faith with the others. If they claim to be the absolute truth from an unknowable God, and that they must be obeyed, then that's a religion I'd be wary of believing in. It's going to lead to extreme beliefs and, eventually, extreme behavior.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, you are saying that. You are the one who is a fallible being but adopting a suposedly infallible text that you cannot confirm. Your religion is a trap, and you are willing to subject yourself to it. You talk as if you have the knowledge of God despite being fallible. THAT is exactly what humble people who know they are fallible would avoid. Yet you immerse yourself in it.

The Bahai text gives clues that it isn't infallible, and you ignore it.

It's a house of cards that must be believed in or else it all falls down. But just like other religions that think they are the only one that is correct, there is varying degrees of commitment to believing that. Baha'is have people that joined and dropped out. And others that stay in but become inactive. I'd imagine the Baha'is here on the forum are pretty well entrenched in believing everything the religion tells them.

 

[CG Didymus]

Thankfully, society is, and has been going in the opposite direction from the one that you desire.
We've realized that being gay isn't an "affliction." It's not a "fad," given that it's been around as long as humans (and other animals) have existed on the planet. That it's just a natural and normal variation in human sexuality. And it's found elsewhere in the animal kingdom.
We've realized (well, some of us) that gay people should have the same right to marry someone they love as anyone else in the world does.

Good point, and some religious people saw it as a threat and a problem, so they said that the God that they believed in, and maybe invented, was against homosexuality.

And I can see that as why the Baha'i Faith is against it too. It is very much against sex of any kind outside of marriage between a man and a woman. They are even against a person playing with themselves, since it usually includes imagining having sex with someone that the person isn't married to. Here's a quote...

"Masturbation is clearly not a proper use of the sex instinct, as this is understood in the Faith. Moreover it involves, as you have pointed out, mental fantasies, while Baha'u'llah, in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, has exhorted us not to indulge our passions and in one of His well-known Tablets Abdu'l-Baha encourages us to keep our 'secret thoughts pure'.​

 

[CG Didymus]

So you’re saying as a fallible human you cannot be wrong? That you’re a god?

Unfortunately, that goes against believers too. Baha'is are ordinary people they can be wrong. They have chosen to believe in the teachings of the Baha'i Faith. Part of what Baha'is believe is that most everybody that is not a Baha'i and is a believer in some other religion or in no religion... is wrong. But some of those people, especially some Christians and some Muslims, believe it is the people that have given themselves over to believe in the Baha'i Faith that are wrong.

So, even for Baha'is... where's the oneness and acceptance of all people, no matter where they come from or what they believe? We all tend to think what we believe is the right way or at least a better way.

 

[Vinayaka]

Aha. Tony just informed me I was mislead by a covenant breaker's website. thank you,

The best one I know of with a lot of information is the Bahai Insider website. But you need to read between the lines on both sides of the discussion. There is always the factor that the Baha'i like to keep some stuff secret as it sheds a bad light on the faith. Of course you can expect denials from both sides, but as neither Baha'i's or ex-Baha'is, we have no vested interest in winning any debates. I just neutrally look for all the information I can get, and then think about which one makes more sense.

Wiki seems to be fairly neutral. It seems that there was more controversy in the beginning stages of the faith, over the 3 wives, lots of covenant breaker declarations, breakaway factions, and such. It seems to have stabilized substantially now. Baháʼu'lláh's family - Wikipedia.

 

[dybmh]

The ex-Baha'i forum

woh... there's an ex-Baha'i forum. Sounds like a rabbit hole I'd like to explore. At least a little bit.

 

[dybmh]

Good on you for taking all that time to assess. This what Tony keeps asking us to do. I personally have neither the interest nor the will.

I've been curious about the Baha'i peace plan for a while. If it was as good as they say, I would overlook many flaws of the remainder of the faith.

Not that I would leave Judaism, but, a good idea is a good idea none the less.

 

[Vinayaka]

I've been curious about the Baha'i peace plan for a while. If it was as good as they say, I would overlook many flaws of the remainder of the faith.

Not that I would leave Judaism, but, a good idea is a good idea none the less.

For sure. The SALT talks were a good idea, and even had some action for a time. Ideas, however good they are, need to manifest into the reality of action. So each idea has to be looked at as to practicality. I think the general idea of elections in the Baha'i faith is a good idea, but it's certainly not practical, and has several challenges.

 

[Vinayaka]

woh... there's an ex-Baha'i forum. Sounds like a rabbit hole I'd like to explore. At least a little bit.

Not very active, and varies in reasons for leaving. I'll PM you the link.

 

[CG Didymus]

The seven days of creation according to Abdul-Baha are referring to Divine Days. That’s is, the Day in which a Manifestation of God appears. So that includes the major religions over the past 7,000 odd years.

There are as yet untranslated Tablets that discuss a lot more than we have available now. Many passages in Revelation were explained by Baha’u’llah, Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi over various Tablets and letters.

I am aware of at least two passages in Revelation where Baha’u’llah refers to Himself as having been mentioned. One of them I think is the passage regarding the Lamb which you mentioned but the Glory of God is the central Figure along with the Lamb. In that passage Two Manifestations of God are mentioned. The Glory of God and the Lamb. Revelation is referring about ‘things to come’ not Christs first coming. In His first coming Christ came with John the Baptist as herald but who was not a Manifestation of God.in the Second Coming both the Lamb and Glory of God are mentioned.

Here’s the links and passage. But you can research these things for yourself also.

The Greek doxa in the NewTestament and theophanic-messianic splendour in Christian Literatures. | Hurqalya Publications: Center for Shaykhī and Bābī-Bahā’ī Studies

Jesus Foretold the “Glory of God” – Baha’u’llah


Baha’u’llah quoted it directly in one of his tablets, as seen in the following provisional translation from a Tablet to Ḥájí Ilyáhú Cohen (the first among the Jews of Kashan, Iran, to embrace the Baha’i Faith), in which Baha’u’llah proclaims:

This day the City of God hath appeared and can be witnessed in perfect adornment. This is the City in which the God of all peoples hath appeared. Ponder these words of John, who announced the great and sacred City and said: “And I saw no temple in it; for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it; for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light of it.” – Baha’u’llah, citing Revelation 21:22–23,

(provisional translation by Nahzy Abadi Buck and Christopher Buck, quoted in “The Eschatology of Globalization: Baha’u’llah’s Multiple-Messiahship Revisited,” Studies in Modern Religions, Religious Movements and the Babi-Baha’i Faiths, p. 150.)

This makes Revelation 21:23 part and parcel of Baha’i scripture. It’s also clear that Baha’u’llah wanted to draw attention to this key verse as a “proof-text” (as scholars say) of Baha’u’llah’s own mission. Why? Because Jesus – whether specifically or symbolically or even coincidentally – foretells the advent of Baha’u’llah by name. The Baha’i scholar Stephen Lambden explains:

The Arabic word bahā’ is, however, found at certain points in Arabic versions of the New Testament and in other Arabic writings. A good example occurs in Revelation 21:23 where John of Patmos predicts, “And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God (= Bahā’-Allāh) is its light, and its lamp is the Lamb.”

In one of his Tablets to a Jewish Baha’i, Bahā’-Allāh [Baha’u’llah] cites this verse in Arabic exactly as it was printed in the London 1858 (1671) edition of the William Watts Arabic Bible for the Eastern Churches. – Stephen Lambden, “The Greek doxa in the New Testament and theophanic-messianic splendour in Christian Literatures”

If Mirza Husayn Ali took the title of Baha'u'llah, how is that "fulfilling" anything? He can't then say, "Well look here. They wrote about me in the Book of Revelation." And what references do you have that the Bab was referred to as the "Lamb"? Then this part of the quote, "Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb." The Lord God the Almighty is not God, but is another title for Mirza Husayn Ali?