Homosexuality and religious.

[mikkel_the_dane]

OK, this is where my bovine excrement detector starts going off...

The emancipation of women, the achievement of full equality between the sexes, is one of the most important, though less acknowledged prerequisites of peace. The denial of such equality perpetrates an injustice against one half of the world’s population and promotes in men harmful attitudes and habits that are carried from the family to the workplace, to political life, and ultimately to international relations. There are no grounds, moral, practical, or biological, upon which such denial can be justified. Only as women are welcomed into full partnership in all fields of human endeavour will the moral and psychological climate be created in which international peace can emerge.

Section II Paragraph 9 - The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice
​

This was written in 1985, long before women were allowed on the UHJ.

Yeah, the doublespeak is doing well.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

So the world is divided into those who are positively in favor of homosexual acts as a morally good thing to participate in and those who are homophobic?

I can understand the position that sexuality is amoral. Other than consent, there really are no other moral considerations. However, there are certain impressions when people claim to be neutral. It comes off as moral laziness at best and supportive of evil at worst.

 

[dybmh]

That’s the authors words and that is not the Baha’i Peace Plan. This is. And it was presented to the United Nations as well as all the leaders of the world individually.

The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice

Some form of a world super-state must needs be evolved, in whose favour all the nations of the world will have willingly ceded every claim to make war, certain rights to impose taxation and all rights to maintain armaments, except for purposes of maintaining internal order within their respective dominions. Such a state will have to include within its orbit an International Executive adequate to enforce supreme and unchallengeable authority on every recalcitrant member of the commonwealth; a World Parliament whose members shall be elected by the people in their respective countries and whose election shall be confirmed by their respective governments; and a Supreme Tribunal whose judgement will have a binding effect even in such cases where the parties concerned did not voluntarily agree to submit their case to its consideration.

Section III Paragragh 7 - The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice
​

Reminds me of:

 

[Vinayaka]

Yeah, but if people come to their senses independently of religion then what do they need religion for?

If anything the texts are written by some guy who came to his senses, too. As I have said the texts, and this peace declaration, doesn't say anything that this atheist didn't figure out for himself. No God needed, no religion needed, just a clear mind and a strong moral sense.


As has been exposed in this discussion global attitudes towards marginalized people have been progressing towards tolerance and acceptance, and the bigotry that is codified in Bahai is a serious liability for it as a religion in the modern era. The text of their peace plan actually cites racism as a problem, yet it has a strong condemnation of gays. While homophobia is not racism it is an unacceptable prejudice against a class of people.

The very fact that you go out and proselytise says that you think 'those people' are inferior to you, so I'm afraid it goes far deeper than homophobia. The sad thing is that it's so obvious to you and me and many others, but it's extremely solidly planted in the collective mind of certain groups. Not allowing females to serve on the UHJ is the other more obvious discrimination.

 

[Vinayaka]

I follow and believe what I have found to be true. Other people must find their own way. To me God is as real as the sun in the sky. So I can only speak about what I have found to be true.

'found to be true' is opinion.

 

[Vinayaka]

OK, this is where my bovine excrement detector starts going off...

The emancipation of women, the achievement of full equality between the sexes, is one of the most important, though less acknowledged prerequisites of peace. The denial of such equality perpetrates an injustice against one half of the world’s population and promotes in men harmful attitudes and habits that are carried from the family to the workplace, to political life, and ultimately to international relations. There are no grounds, moral, practical, or biological, upon which such denial can be justified. Only as women are welcomed into full partnership in all fields of human endeavour will the moral and psychological climate be created in which international peace can emerge.

Section II Paragraph 9 - The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice
​

This was written in 1985, long before women were allowed on the UHJ.

Women are not allowed on the UHJ.

 

[Vinayaka]

Some form of a world super-state must needs be evolved, in whose favour all the nations of the world will have willingly ceded every claim to make war, certain rights to impose taxation and all rights to maintain armaments, except for purposes of maintaining internal order within their respective dominions. Such a state will have to include within its orbit an International Executive adequate to enforce supreme and unchallengeable authority on every recalcitrant member of the commonwealth; a World Parliament whose members shall be elected by the people in their respective countries and whose election shall be confirmed by their respective governments; and a Supreme Tribunal whose judgement will have a binding effect even in such cases where the parties concerned did not voluntarily agree to submit their case to its consideration.

Section III Paragragh 7 - The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice
​

Reminds me of:

View attachment 67656

I have yet to see a single reply from any country, or the UN to that call. File 13, maybe. Any individual, and certainly all kinds of groups could easily have written something similar. Words simply don't equal action.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

'found to be true' is opinion.

Yeah, but in the Western affiliated folk psyche the truth is an old idea that actually doesn't work as the truth of the world. All of the people who believe in it, always do that as their individual version of the truth.
As an idea is it is no different than God. It never been found in the wild, but always as an idea in some people's worldview.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yeah, but in the Western affiliated folk psyche the truth is an old idea that actually doesn't work as the truth of the world. All of the people who believe in it, always do that as their individual version of the truth.
As an idea is it is no different than God. It never been found in the wild, but always as an idea in some people's worldview.

My favorite is when they say 'the truth hurts' without any explanation whatsoever of what that 'truth' might be.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We know science is useful, but how is religion necessary at all? In the USA religious affiliation is declining. We see evangelical Christians aligned with irrational movements like anti-vaxx and election denial, all of the far right. These are a threat to America.

Never mistake other peoples abilities in both science and religion to be reflecting the Will of God, which is virtues and morals.

True science benefits humanity as a whole and will no compromise Morals and Virtues

True religions also benefits humanity as a whole by setting the required Morals and virtues.

Both are very prone to abuse. Both bad science and bad religion destroy humanity and are not looking at forming lasting bonds across the entire species of the human race. Both the negitive aspects abuse this planets resources and the life it contains.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You offer no justification except that you believe the texts. You assume the God exists, you assume the Messenger is authentic, and you offer no rational thought as to how you came to these conclusions

The Message is the Balance humanity needs to find, it is the Justification.

The study of that Message, using justice, logic and reason, led me to that conclusion.

If you have not studied what was offered, then you are not able to state that I offer no justification.

You can chose to be uniformed and base your responses accordingly.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

That’s the authors words and that is not the Baha’i Peace Plan. This is. And it was presented to the United Nations as well as all the leaders of the world individually.

The Promise of World Peace—The Universal House of Justice

Introduction

In 1985, the Universal House of Justice addressed a message to the peoples of the world inviting them to consider that a new social order can be fostered by all peoples’ seeing themselves as members of one universal family. This message was presented to world leaders and countless others during the United Nations International Year of Peace.

OK, I read it It's beefy, that's for sure. 6693 words intended to deliver World Peace. I went through it rather carefully and pulled quotes from anything that remotely resembled the elements of a plan for peace. After removing duplicate concepts, the result is a greatly diminished 241 words, 21 total elements in the plan.

Of those 21 elements, a little over half were attitude shifts either by the populace or the leadership. These items do not include any practical instructions how to adjust attitudes in this way. They are aspirations, or maybe required strategies for peace. But what's given isn't actionable.

The remaining 9 elements I found were at least functional recommendations that could be implemented. But out of 9 items, I find 4 objectionable and 1 irrelevent leaving 4 decent, somewhat common sense, ideas which would encourage more peace and harmony in the world.

I've included my objections in the list of "Practical Ideas" below:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A break down of elements recommended by the UHJ for world peace detailed to the UN and all nations, October 1985:​

Attitude shift:

1. a reassessment of the assumptions upon which the view of mankind’s predicament is based.
   
2. treat others as we ourselves would wish to be treated
   
3. glorification of material pursuits must be cleared
4. a fresh look at the disparity between rich and poor is required; consultation with experts and the people directly affected
5. racism is a major barrier to peace. recognition of the oneness of mankind,
   
6. women are welcomed into full partnership in all fields
   
7. unbridled nationalism must give way to love of humanity as a whole
8. all in authority identify spiritual principles to solve problems
   
9. religious leaders contemplate whether they submerge their theological differences in mutual forbearance
10. subordination of national interests to a unified world; It repudiates excessive centralization and all attempts at uniformity
    
11. the peace and well-being of all the world regarded as sacred
    
12. unity is firmly established

Practical ideas:

1. consult together in a united search for appropriate solutions
2. international activities which nurture mutual affection and a sense of solidarity among peoples greatly to be increased
3. universal education: giving first priority to women and girls; teaching world citizenship
4. adopting an international auxiliary language
   • irrelevent
5. abandonment of everything which enables people to consider themselves superior
   • abandoning "everything" is too much, no one will agree to this, a compromise is needed
6. demilitarization of the whole civilized world
7. a world unified in political machinery, spiritual aspiration, trade, finance, script, and language
   • united in spiritual aspiration is oppressive
8. a world super-state, in whose favour all nations have willingly ceded war, certain taxation, armaments except for internal order
   • the rights and protection of the minority cannot be guaranteed
   • all nations "willingly" agreeing to this is unrealistic, more compromise is needed
9. super-state will have a supreme-unchallengeable-International-Executive, a World Parliament, and a Supreme Tribunal
   • no humans are infallible, ordaining the Executive with infallible unchallengable power is a mistake

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A peace plan which demands the adjustment of all religions to conform to one of them is definitely: "If everyone agrees with me, no one would ever fight again."

So would you agree, that in the end, that is what everyone who has not accepted that message is fighting against, if the way forward is indeed he Message of Baha’u’llah?

So if we read the Holy Books. Is there such an age predicted, a final battle between what is from Fod and what is from Man, the battle of Good verses evil!

If this is not that day, when will the Messiah come!

Regrads Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Of those 21 elements, a little over half were attitude shifts either by the populace or the leadership. These items do not include any practical instructions how to adjust attitudes in this way. They are aspirations, or maybe required strategies for peace. But what's given isn't actionable.

So would you agree, that in the end, that is what everyone who has not accepted that message is fighting against, if the way forward is indeed he Message of Baha’u’llah?

So if we read the Holy Books. Is there such an age predicted, a final battle between what is from Fod and what is from Man, the battle of Good verses evil!

If this is not that day, when will the Messiah come!

Regrads Tony

So that statement tied into my post. The attitude shift will indeed be required, that is obvious.

What is offered in the Peace statement is that that shift in attitude will also see people see the wisdom in what is offered in the Baha'i Writings, the greater detail given in those over 100 volumes of writing, that one statement is not able to contain. They do not have to become a Baha'i, they will see the wisdom as it applies to current world affairs.

As offered, the argument is not against the Baha'i, who already live as one human race in peace, with a world executive voted by a process inclusive of all Nations.

The argument is against the validity of Baha’u’llah to give a Message from God.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

To be fair, the Baha'i don't demand, they just think that everyone on this planet, when they actually come to their senses, will see the truth of their faith, and there will be mass conversions. That was already predicted in their prophecies and in Baha'ispeak, it was 'entry by troops'. Entry by troops never happened, pioneering has slowed dramatically because of burnout, and maybe it's ineffectiveness, and there has been little growth in numbers in the last 20 years, and more likely an overall decline.

This fewness and slowness is predicted. The issues we have as humans, is our life is just a blink in time and we all would like to see peace in our time, yet we work under God's ultimate plan and God's time for that plan to unfold.

There is a time foretold where still with fewest of numbers, the world will rise as a whole to ridicule to Message given by Baha'u'llah.

I hope that will indicate why I am excited about this time, it appears more and more just want to do that, all the while quote how insignificant the Faith is in world affairs.

Maybe I will live in the very time that change happens, maybe I will not. All I can do is live what I share and let God plan the rest. That's all a Baha'i can do, be a light of peace and unity in a darkly divided world.

Edit for this quote.

“How great, how very great is the Cause! How very fierce the onslaught of all the peoples and kindreds of the earth. Ere long shall the clamor of the multitude throughout Africa, throughout America, the cry of the European and of the Turk, the groaning of India and China, be heard from far and near. One and all, they shall arise with all their power to resist His Cause. Then shall the knights of the Lord, assisted by His grace from on high, strengthened by faith, aided by the power of understanding, and reinforced by the legions of the Covenant, arise and make manifest the truth of the verse: ‘Behold the confusion that hath befallen the tribes of the defeated!’”
Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 17-18

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is this the blueprint? It's sketchier than the UN link above. There is no help for mankind there. And it seems like its author is unaware of humanism's track record. He's advocating for more religion as part of his "blueprint." He's arguing as if he has answers, but where are they? People like him have been admonishing people to be this way or that, but that has had little effect on them, as this paper has and will have. It's about how wicked man is and how much he needs guidance from a holy book, but no specifics.

It is only a map to the blueprint.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I've been waiting for the right time to mention this to you. I think that the UHJ has reversed its position on women serving on it.

Baha'i Women Are On the Universal House of Justice

It's a very long document. I only read about 1/4 of it. It appears they go back to the original texts, the original language, to make the case that women had always been intended to serve equally as men on the UHJ.

Gives some hope, regarding the homosexuality issue.

Unfortunately you have shared a concept by a Covenant Breaker Website.

I expect all this to be aired. The law is not able to be changed in regards to who is elected on to the Universal House of Justice, nor for a legal marriage that is not between a man and a women.

The thing about a website, just one or two people can make it look like it is significant.

God's chosen King's send the Laws from Zion.

Regards Tony

 

[dybmh]

So would you agree, that in the end, that is what everyone who has not accepted that message is fighting against, if the way forward is indeed he Message of Baha’u’llah?

I would phrase it more simply: Any authoritarian dictator can deliver peace and harmony with an iron fist and the world's resources at its disposal.

So if we read the Holy Books. Is there such an age predicted, a final battle between what is from Fod and what is from Man, the battle of Good verses evil!

Yes, the final battle is an archetype. It has crept its way into the hearts and minds of many authors.

If this is not that day, when will the Messiah come!

Who's messiah? The Jewish people are on their own path as God intended.

So that statement tied into my post. The attitude shift will indeed be required, that is obvious.

What is offered in the Peace statement is that that shift in attitude will also see people see the wisdom in what is offered in the Baha'i Writings, the greater detail given in those over 100 volumes of writing, that one statement is not able to contain. They do not have to become a Baha'i, they will see the wisdom as it applies to current world affairs.

But it's not a plan unless it says "How".

As offered, the argument is not against the Baha'i, who already live as one human race in peace, with a world executive voted by a process inclusive of all Nations.

The argument is against the validity of Baha’u’llah to give a Message from God.

Not at all. I looked at the entire document objectively. I looked for both advantages and disadvantages. They're nice ideas with very little concrete. That's an objective critcism which has nothing to do with Baha'u'llah's claimed station.

But, there is a problem with claiming to be the promised one of all religions, both past, present, and future. Without proof of this eternal divinity, the individual making the claim will be immediately ignored by most as a lunatic.

If Baha'u'llah prioritized world harmony, peace, and unity, he should have completely avoided any assertions of his station. The ideas should speak for themselves. He should have known that the claims of status would undermine and distract from the efforts for world peace.

 

[dybmh]

Unfortunately you have shared a concept by a Covenant Breaker Website.

I expect all this to be aired. The law is not able to be changed in regards to who is elected on to the Universal House of Justice, nor for a legal marriage that is not between a man and a women.

The thing about a website, just one or two people can make it look like it is significant.

God's chosen King's send the Laws from Zion.

Regards Tony

Oh. I didn't know that. I'll delete my post.

 

[dybmh]

Women are not allowed on the UHJ.

Aha. Tony just informed me I was mislead by a covenant breaker's website. thank you,