Homosexuality and religious.

[Brian2]

So goes "but the Bible says...."

Yes "fornication" can ,mean sex outside of marriage. But where there is commitment that is at least part of the way to marriage and is seen, legally, as close to marriage in many countries these days where the commitment has been ongoing for a while.
But yes, going by the letter of the Bible, I'm probably out of sync.

 

[PruePhillip]

Sure, if a democratic government votes for it, it can be legal. Because the concept of law established by majority is followed only in democratic countries. I do not see any problem with it. Do you think any democratic government will do this?

So when I say that such and such a practice could be accepted one day I get people say, 'It won't happen, it's against the law.'
But that's not even an argument - it's a distraction. Anything is possible with future generations.

 

[KWED]

Actually, many species get married - only it's called 'mating for life' or 'paired for life.'

Indeed.
So you consider an unmarried couple in a long-term, monogamous relationship to be morally equivalent to a married couple then.

Humans 'naturally' bond in social ceremony

So any social event where two people commit to each other is morally the same as a marriage.

and have likely done so BEFORE the arrival of modern humans.

What do you mean by "modern humans"?

 

[KWED]

So here's the problem. I say that pederasty could be legal one day (sex with pubescent and willing minors) and many say. 'Can't ever happen, it's against the law.'

Wrong. The argument isn't that something currently illegal cannot become legal in the future "because it is currently against the law" (or vice versa). That's just daft. It is because evidence and arguments change.

Sex with prepubescent children will not become legal because of the medical problems, issues of consent, etc.

 

[KWED]

He was not saying that right is wrong or that denial is belief, and He was not saying that right is left or south is north.

And no one claimed that was what it was saying.

He was trying to make the point that we are not to question what God has revealed, we are to obey it.
This a clear instruction to obey what God has revealed through the Messenger, even if what was revealed makes no sense to us.

Seriously?
That was the point I was making!!

I told you that as a Bahai you have to follow whatever Bahaullah said, without question, even if it makes no sense.
You denied that.
Now you admit it.
Flip.
Flop.

Funny how you have been a Bahai for 40? years, and claim to have "thoroughly investigated" it - yet I keep introducing you to Bahai texts and concepts that you seemed to have no idea about and denied existed (I've only been looking into Bahaism for a few months).
I wonder what else I can teach you about Bahaism this week.

 

[KWED]

I do not have a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality.
I agree with the Baha'i Laws regarding homosexuality, that is all.

So let's get this straight, you don't have any negative attitudes towards homosexuality - but you agree that homosexuality is a shameful sexual aberration, an immoral evil that is against nature that should be purged from the world.

*mod edit*

 

[KWED]

I feel fortunate to be in a religion that not only allows, but encourages folks to think for themselves. Therefore, I can use my own wisdom and common sense to follow the science on such things, which is that homosexuality is a normal thing that happens naturally to a certain percentage of people. Sexuality, in general has nothing to do with the soul, or atman.

Sadly, some adherents of some religions have to rely on an archaic book for such decisions, and by the rules of that faith, and feel they have to adhere to its laws, however Draconian they might be.

From that, I can easily see why a person might conclude any member of certain religions to be homophobic.

Many religionists are better than the religion they follow.
I only assume someone is homophobic when they defend or confirm the homophobic elements in their religion - as the OP did.

 

[KWED]

No, what he was optimistic about is that I ever denied anything.
I never denied the Baha'i teachings and Laws on homosexuality.

You denied that there is any homophobia in Bahai teachings.
You weren't aware of the passages in question.

 

[KWED]

True.

So you accept that there is homophobia in Bahai teachings.
Finally!
Why does it always take so long for you to accept the obvious?

 

[KWED]

Nature is like that too. It discriminated against men by only permitting women childbirth but nobody complains because that’s the way the world was made. So nature deliberately excluded men from certain roles for the perpetuation of the human race and so marriage between men and women is for a very important purpose other than pleasure. No discrimination in perpetuating the human race. You wouldn’t exist if you didn’t have both a mother and father.

You completely misunderstand what"nature" is and how it works.
You also misunderstand what "discriminate" means.

 

[Spirit of Light]

So you accept that there is homophobia in Bahai teachings.
Finally!
Why does it always take so long for you to accept the obvious?

Are you aware that the teaching isn't say it is wrong to be homosexual it only say to practice the act is not what a religious person should do to follow Gods law.

But if someone choses to act out on their homosexual feelings, that is up to them. A religious person should not condemn the person.

A religious person should always look at oneself before criticize others.

 

[KWED]

No comparison. It’s just that both fall under immorality as does adultery and sex before marriage.

So why is homosexuality "immoral"?
Is this just one of the things that you blindly accept without doubt, even if it makes no sense?

Also, that group of "immoral" things seems a bit odd. Three types of consensual adult sex, and child abuse.
Still not looking good.

 

[KWED]

I forget the name of a Bahai member here who has stated in this very topic that he/she is married to a transgender (I can find it out by going through the earlier posts). They will not have any children between them.

I have noticed that of the handful of active Bahais on here, a good proportion claim to be in relationships with gay people. Seems rather odd, considering the homophobia in Bahai teachings. I wonder if it is a kind of "some of my best friends are black..." type argument used by people tacitly defending racism?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I have noticed that of the handful of active Bahais on here, a good proportion claim to be in relationships with gay people. Seems rather odd, considering the homophobia in Bahai teachings. I wonder if it is a kind of "some of my best friends are black..." type argument used by people tacitly defending racism?

So maybe Baha'is isn't as homophobic as you have assumed then.

Maybe it is you that has misunderstood something about Baha'is

 

[KWED]

No, Baha'u'llah said the exact opposite of that.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.”
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

I can think whatever I want to because I have free will to choose.
God gave us all free will so we could think for ourselves.

All you have done is show Bahaullah completely contradicting himself (which is often what happens when people make stuff up as they go along).

You just made this statement...

we are not to question what God has revealed, we are to obey it.
This a clear instruction to obey what God has revealed through the Messenger, even if what was revealed makes no sense to us.

It's Theological Whack-a-Mole™

 

[KWED]

So maybe Baha'is isn't as homophobic as you have assumed then.

Maybe it is you that has misunderstood something about Baha'is

Unfortunately for you, it has now been established beyond doubt that Bahai teachings contain homophobia.
Obviously, that doesn't mean that all Bahais are homophobes - only the ones that defend that homophobia.
(TBH, I was questioning the reality of all these "gay Bahai wives" )

 

[Spirit of Light]

Unfortunately for you, it has now been established beyond doubt that Bahai teachings contain homophobia.
Obviously, that doesn't mean that all Bahais are homophobes - only the ones that defend that homophobia.
(TBH, I was questioning the reality of all these "gay Bahai wives" )

Beyond doubt??? Oh wow.....that must be only within you then

 

[KWED]

Something doesn't seem right about people having desires for sex and acting on these desires just because that have the desires.

What's "not right" about it? (as long as it's adult and consensual)

What Shoghi Effendi said about the spiritual low water mark is an understatement.

Did you know that Shoghi Effendi was likely a closet homosexual. Several people close to him have related stories that suggest it.

 

[KWED]

Beyond doubt??? Oh wow.....that must be only within you then

The Bahai texts have been quoted.
It's there in black and white.
The language is unequivocally homophobic, by definition.
Even @Trailblazer has accepted it (although as we both know, she will probably flip her position several times over the next few pages).

 

[Spirit of Light]

The Bahai texts have been quoted.
It's there in black and white.
The language is unequivocally homophobic, by definition.
Even @Trailblazer has accepted it (although as we both know, she will probably flip her position several times over the next few pages).

It actually only ask Baha'is to not take part in the act. A Baha'i can be born as homosexual and still practice within the Baha'i teaching and law.

And it does not say a Baha'i can't live with a person who is homosexual or Bi-sexual.