Homosexuality and religious.

[ppp]

Yes, what would a Baha'i world look like? Would it be all peace, love and unity? Maybe, but then what would they do with all their laws against all the same crimes that are being committed now?

We already see enforced conformity within their ranks. And a chilling eagerness to give up their rights. Even the rights explicitly expressed in their founding tenets. I suspect that the government would be one where one's value (and suffrage) is directly proportional to one's worth to the Governing Council.

 

[KWED]

That is deflection.
It is also a red herring.

No. it's an analogy.
You implied that calling out homophobes was as bad as being homophobic.
I used the racism analogy to show the flaw in your argument.

A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue.[1] It may be either a logical fallacy or a literary device that leads readers or audiences towards a false conclusion. A red herring might be intentionally used, such as in mystery fiction or as part of rhetorical strategies (e.g. in politics), or it could be inadvertently used during argumentation. Red herring - Wikipedia

Having a copy of "My Big Book of Fallacies" is no substitute for actually understanding them.

Calling Baha'is homophobes is just as judgmental as judging homosexual behavior.

Your point has been refuted. But I'll do it again in terms you might understand.
"Judgemental" here is a meaningless term. It gives no indication as to what the issue being judged is, or why.
"Calling black people lazy ******* is judgemental"
"Criticising racists is judgemental".

Nope, you're still not getting it, are you. You'll just say "But I'm not racist!"
I'll try again

"Being homophobic is judgemental"
"Challenging homophobes is judgemental"

Nah. It's never going to sink in.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'll try again

"Being homophobic is judgemental"
"Challenging homophobes is judgemental"

I'll try again

"Saying that people are homophobic is judgemental"
"Calling people homophobes is judgemental"

 

[CG Didymus]

But why does god think homosexuality is bad?

Here's the story of a gay Baha'i that was pushed out of the faith. "Meet A Baha’i Activist Pushing For LGBTQ Tolerance In His Faith"

It's exactly what we've been talking about. If the gay person doesn't conform and is too vocal, they're going to get in trouble.

 

[Jimmy]

@Policy
politically supporting gay right and being pro choice while at the same time being personally against abortion and homosexuality is perfectly fine. You'd be better off minding your own business when it comes to peoples personal beliefs.

 

[ppp]

@Policy
politically supporting gay right and being pro choice while at the same time being personally against abortion and homosexuality is perfectly fine. You'd be better off minding your own business when it comes to peoples personal beliefs.

Oh? How so?

 

[CG Didymus]

Here's the story of a gay Baha'i that was pushed out of the faith. "Meet A Baha’i Activist Pushing For LGBTQ Tolerance In His Faith"

It's exactly what we've been talking about. If the gay person doesn't conform and is too vocal, they're going to get in trouble.

I just read a comment about that article that's worth reading...

As a Bahai myself, my take here is that there is nothing in the Bahai writings, including Shoghi Effendi's own interpretations to justify any form of discrimination / discriminatory laws, against our LGBTQ+ bretheren. There are 5 letters written by secretaries on the behalf of Shoghi Effendi that reflect the prejudices of the 1930-50s against homosexuality out of the many thousands of letters that were written. As you state in your article, these letters do not have the authority of interpretation and a very easy way to see this is to note that these letters were not authored by Shoghi Effendi himself, let alone. However the Universal House of Justice, who (who are like the Pope for the Catholic world) have full authority from Bahai Scripture, to make rules without any restrictions, and they have chosen to create the law that forbids accepting same sex marriage (the earliest letter that I have seen is from 2013 but there might be earlier policy - The Universal House of Justice does not have a clear system for disseminating its policies). Perhaps one day they might reconsider this law? While the discriminatory Bahai laws remain this reinforces the existing prejudice against our LGBTQ+ members (This article is very kind on that - I know of many truly awful horror stories of discrimination). I am not gay and yet by speaking up on this discrimination and in seeking to examine Bahai Scripture for myself on this topic, I am shunned and Bahais backbite about me to the Bahai Administration.​

 

[Jimmy]

@KWED
politically supporting gay right and being pro choice while at the same time being personally against abortion and homosexuality is perfectly fine. You'd be better off minding your own business when it comes to peoples personal beliefs.

 

[CG Didymus]

Here's the story of a gay Baha'i that was pushed out of the faith. "Meet A Baha’i Activist Pushing For LGBTQ Tolerance In His Faith"

It's exactly what we've been talking about. If the gay person doesn't conform and is too vocal, they're going to get in trouble.

Here's another story from a gay Baha'i...

I'm homosexual. I was raised in a Baha'i home, so I was taught that homosexuality is a spiritual affliction like gambling or alcoholism that can be overcome with resolute prayer and purity of thought. Let me tell you the results from a nineteen year experiment: I was still gay, but miserable, repressed, suicidal and an alcoholic. It sounds unreal, but that's what happened. I repressed my sex drive and, because I thought I could 'fix' myself if I tried hard enough, I did every therapy I could to make myself heterosexual. The 'therapies' don't work. They don't work. THEY DON'T WORK. I'll save everyone melodrama and put this succinctly: they caused me much harm and no good. It is child abuse. It is torture. Most importantly, it is totally ineffective...

To be a Baha'i, you have to be willing to follow the rules. I'm incapable of following the Baha'i rules that say a homosexual is a second class, mentally ill citizen. It's just not true. I'm not mentally ill and I'm not willing to hide my private life like a cat shamefully hides its scat. My partner and our love deserve more.

And maybe it's possible to be a solitary Baha'i and love Baha'u'llah on my own, but all I can think of is how such a perfect man described the perfect world to us. I've read the Writings, and sexual minorities aren't part of the Plan. We're not part of the perfect world the Baha'is want. They want a world where we don't exist. They want a world where we give the Faith our lives and our passions in service to God, but where we quietly sit in the back and are happy for our place and are aware of our sinful nature like a herd of obedient peasants. They want a world where sexual minorities meekly accept that loving someone of the same gender means they're of the same spiritual condition as a murderer, a wife-beater. They want a world were sexual minorities put their head down and give up hope of personal happiness so they'll be rewarded when they die. What a raw deal.​

 

[CG Didymus]

Who is "Dale" btw?

I have no idea who this "Dale" person is

Did she say it was Dale Husband? If so, apparently he's no longer a Baha'i.

Why I quit the Baha’i Faith.
by Dale Husband​

 

[Trailblazer]

Did she say it was Dale Husband? If so, apparently he's no longer a Baha'i.

Why I quit the Baha’i Faith.
by Dale Husband​

No, his name is Dale Lehman.
About Dale E. Lehman – Dale E. Lehman

The website is not up-to-date as his wife of 47 years passed on a few months ago.

 

[YoursTrue]

Denying who they are, and suppressing their natural desires is not self control, it's a pernicious enforced indoctrination. We have ample evidence now of the harm caused by trying to enforce celibacy. Being gay harms no one, it is a perfectly natural variation of adult sexual desire.

When religions claim a perfect deity sees consenting adults having sex as wrong or harmful because they're gay, it's just sufficient rational evidence the message is entirely human in origin. Since it reflects irrational human ignorance and prejudice.

How do you equate that to child molestation?

 

[YoursTrue]

Did she say it was Dale Husband? If so, apparently he's no longer a Baha'i.

Why I quit the Baha’i Faith.
by Dale Husband​

My question is why does someone become a member of the Bahai faith? Still can't figure what, if any, restrictions restraints of service are placed on someone not behaving according to "rules." That Bahaullah set, of course.

 

[YoursTrue]

Read the thread...there's one comparison quoted in the post you've just responded to.

Question: would you say the child molester or rapist thinks his action is wrong? Or immoral?

 

[Trailblazer]

My question is why does someone become a member of the Bahai faith?

Because they believe that Baha'ullah was a Manifestation of God.

Still can't figure what, if any, restrictions restraints of service are placed on someone not behaving according to "rules." That Bahaullah set, of course.

That would vary according to the rules that were broken.

 

[Bree]

Yesterday (for me) i was answering about a question relating to baha'i scripture and homosexuality. And i replied something like "I can not tell other what they can and can not do in their belief/faith."

The person who made the question then directly assumed i had to be a homophobic, hateful person against every LGBTQ person.

I just wonder, how is it possible to conclude that a person is homophobic or hateful from a reply like the one i gave?

Just to clerify my true stand on it, i am neutral to what other people do in their relationship sexually, i is not any of my business to critique them.

Homosexuals have been pushing the agenda for some time now. If you dont support them, then you are automatically labeled 'homophobic'

I wouldnt take it personally and I dont think what you stated was at all homophobic. You just didnt offer the support they need to feel justified in their actions. They are looking for support because their conscience bothers them as it does for any error we pursue.

Romans 2:14, 15 we read: “For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused.”

Homosexuals seek the approval of every person on earth because their own conscience does not offer them approval. We were designed by God and he put internal laws into us...we dont have to obey them, but when we dont obey them our conscience condemns us.

 

[Bree]

Question: would you say the child molester or rapist thinks his action is wrong? Or immoral?

Yes, he knows they are wrong and that is why he does his evil deeds in the dark behind closed doors and works hard to cover his tracks.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Homosexuals have been pushing the agenda for some time now. If you dont support them, then you are automatically labeled 'homophobic'

I wouldnt take it personally and I dont think what you stated was at all homophobic. You just didnt offer the support they need to feel justified in their actions. They are looking for support because their conscience bothers them as it does for any error we pursue.

Romans 2:14, 15 we read: “For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused.”

Homosexuals seek the approval of every person on earth because their own conscience does not offer them approval. We were designed by God and he put internal laws into us...we dont have to obey them, but when we dont obey them our conscience condemns us.

The strange thing is, i even multiple times said, i am not against homosexual people. But i could not do the sexual action my self.

 

[ppp]

Homosexuals have been pushing the agenda for some time now. If you dont support them, then you are automatically labeled 'homophobic'

The agenda of living their life with the partner of their choice, making a life, raising a family and growing old together.

O, the horror.

 

[Bree]

The strange thing is, i even multiple times said, i am not against homosexual people. But i could not do the sexual action my self.

yeah i know what you are saying. They want full support and approval or they accuse you of being against them...and homophobic. Thats how they think. Its really just a bullying tactic to try and dim your resolve and to get you to change your view.

Never change your view! Your standards in life are yours to live, no one elses. They have no right to demand compliance from any of us.