Homosexuality and religious.

[CG Didymus]

does anyone tolerate behaviors they disagree with? I dont think so.

Yes, society has to draw the line somewhere. And that is what we are questioning. Is homosexuality still that line? Because...

Of course they do. It's how a civilised society works.

Civilized society has opened themselves up to gays and is accepting them.

 

[danieldemol]

They call us homophobic but they are hypocrites.
bahaiphobic: having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against Baha'i people.

There is certainly an palpable aversion to the Baha'i Faith and an 'I'm more rational than you' vibe.

Being able to relish the irony and naked hypocrisy helps with participating in this thread.

I suppose certain of the Shia think we are ironic and hypocritic for our "aversion" and "Im more rational than you vibe" to Khomeini for his treatment of Baha'is too. That is just how the minds of oppresors work, always portraying themselves as the victim for not being allowed to oppress unhindered.

In my opinion.

 

[CG Didymus]

I claim nothing. Who am I to claim anything? God is the Judge not me.

You know we've all been through this before. Do you "believe" Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of God and has brought us the laws of God for this age? If you do, then how sure are you of that belief? Are you absolutely so certain that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of God that you could "claim" it is true? Could you show us proof that you believe supports that claim? I'm sure you could. Just proclaiming it proudly... "I'm a Baha'is!"

It's too wishy washing to say, "Oh, who am I to claim anything."

 

[CG Didymus]

My beliefs apply to myself and my life only. What others believe is their business.

We all know that religions like the Baha'i Faith believe there is One Truth. And, for the Baha'is, it happens to be what Baha'u'llah has said to be true. And what are Baha'is supposed to do with the message of Baha'u'llah? Keep it to themselves or tell others that the glorious day of the Lord has arrived! And is that message for one person or is it for all people the world over?

And, to tie it into this thread, the message is for gays also. And that message is what? "We love you and accept as you are. Now, however, it's time to start changing into what God wants you to be. A heterosexual that gets married to someone of the opposite sex or to remain celibate. But you can't keep doing what you're doing. And doing who you're doing. It's not right."

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you see where you are going? Mortifying the few joys that we have for religious dogma? Humans can live live while beating themselves with a whip every day, or wearing hair shirts, because they "hate their sinful natures." But is that really LIVING? Or are you, like so many religious, not focused so much on living as on trying not to have to put up with the inevitablitly of death?

I am just calling an Ace an Ace and a Spade a Spade. Most sex is for pleasure, not procreation.

I am not suggesting that people should give up the few joys they have. If they are not religious they can do whatever they want to, what they feel is right. Only religious people are enjoined to abide by God's Laws, but even they can have sex as long as it is within the Law, as that is how God designed it. God created a world that is a storehouse of suffering so it is only fair that He allows some bounties to counterbalance all this suffering. People can pick the enjoyments they want to counterbalance all the suffering. Most people pick sex, I used to be one of them.

 

[CG Didymus]

The primary biological purpose of the reproductive system is to reproduce. That is the natural order and how each one of us came into being. Without heterosexual sex we would not exist. Homosexual sex doesn't result in propagation of the species.

I find the argument of the presence of homosexual behaviors in the animal kingdom a weak justification for normalising homosexual behaviors in humans.

It's all completely off topic of course. The thread is about those with conservative religious beliefs having a positive attitude towards those who are openly gay. What I hear is none of the Baha'is here have any issues with such people. We're all free to belief as we choice and homosexuality is legal in our respective countries.

You don't like religions that we are socially conservative. We get it. However no one here is asking you to change your belief let alone become a Baha'i. On the other hand you seem discontent to let the Baha'is have their beliefs and live as they do.

Is the Baha'i belief about homosexuality backed by science? Or is it possibly a superstitious belief?

 

[Trailblazer]

I'd be interested in seeing some examples from the Writings regarding masturbation, especially if it is described as evil, satanic, or unnatural.

No, it is not described that way, as evil, satanic or unnatural. It is only described as improper.

1220. Masturbation

"We have found in the Holy Writings no explicit references to masturbation, but there are a number of principles and teachings which can guide a Bahá’í to the correct attitude towards it. In a letter to an individual believer, written by the Guardian's secretary on his behalf, it is pointed out that:

'The Bahá’í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'

"In response to another letter enquiring if there were any legitimate way in which a person could express the sex instinct if, for some reason, he were unable to marry or if outer circumstances such as economic factors were to cause him to delay marriage, the Guardian's secretary wrote on his behalf:

'Concerning your question whether there are any legitimate forms of expression of the sex instinct outside of marriage: According to the Bahá’í Teachings no sexual act can be considered lawful unless performed between lawfully married persons. Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse. The Bahá’í youth should, on the one hand, be taught the lesson of self-control which, when exercised, undoubtedly has a salutary effect on the development of character and of personality in general, and on the other should be advised, nay even encouraged, to contract marriage while still young and in full possession of their physical vigour. Economic factors, no doubt, are often a serious hindrance to early marriage but in most cases are only an excuse, and as such should not be over stressed.'

"In another letter on the Guardian's behalf, also to an individual believer, the secretary writes:

'Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex…'

"This indicates how the whole matter of sex and the problems related to it have assumed far too great an importance in the thinking of present-day society.

"Masturbation is clearly not a proper use of the sex instinct, as this is understood in the Faith. Moreover it involves, as you have pointed out, mental fantasies, while Bahá’u’lláh, in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, has exhorted us not to indulge our passions and in one of His well-known Tablets ‘Abdu'l-Bahá encourages us to keep our 'secret thoughts pure'. Of course many wayward thoughts come involuntarily to the mind and these are merely a result of weakness and are not blameworthy unless they become fixed or even worse, are expressed in improper acts. In 'The Advent of Divine Justice', when describing the moral standards that Bahá’ís must uphold both individually and in their community life, the Guardian wrote:

'Such a chaste and holy life, with its implications of modesty, purity, temperance, decency, and clean-mindedness, involves no less than the exercise of moderation in all that pertains to dress, language, amusements, and all artistic and literary avocations. It demands daily vigilance in the control of one's carnal desires and corrupt inclinations.'

"Your problem, therefore, is one against which you should continue to struggle, with determination and with the aid of prayer. You should remember, however, that it is only one of the many temptations and faults that a human being must strive to overcome during his lifetime, and you should not increase the difficulty you have by over-emphasising its importance. We suggest you try to see it within the whole spectrum of the qualities that a Bahá’í must develop in his character. Be vigilant against temptation, but do not allow it to claim too great a share of your attention. You should concentrate, rather, on the virtues that you should develop, the services you should strive to render, and, above all, on God and His attributes, and devote your energies to living a full Bahá’í life in all its many aspects."

(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, a copy of which was sent to the compiler with a letter dated March 8, 1981)

Lights of Guidance/Chastity and Sex Education - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

That doesn't diminish the impact of what's written or the reticence of Baha'i to see the issue from another point of view.

What about the reticence of the non-Baha'is to see the issue from the Baha'i point of view.
I have seen no effort made so see our point of view. All I see is pushing back.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think we can both agree that cheating is an evil passion. Yes, if a person identifies themself as a "cheater", that doesn't mean we should condone their cheating. I think the distinction is that cheating harms the spouse. Homosexuality is victimless.

Cheating not only harms the spouse, it harms the cheater because it is bad for one's character.
Homosexuality might be victimless but that does not mean it is not harmful to the one engaging in the behavior.
Whether or not it is harmful is a matter of opinion.

 

[Truthseeker]

"Bahá'u'lláh has spoken very strongly against this shameful sexual aberration"

Okay you got me, but the whole quote is this "...Bahá'u'lláh has spoken very strongly against this shameful sexual aberration, as He has against adultery and immoral conduct in general. We must try and help the soul to overcome them. "(25 October 1949)

I also point out this was in behalf of Shoghi Effendi, and for us this has a lower status than words written by Shoghi Effendi. I think the general gist of this is that if a person engages in homosexual acts, it is immoral, just as adultery is, which I what I said earlier to you.

This is just question begging. It is only a "handicap" in the context of the Bahai intolerance of it. If Bahaism accepted it, it would not be a "handicap".
I someone owns a company and will not employ red-haired people, that doesn't make red hair "a handicap", it just makes the employer an intolerant idiot.

I wrote this not expecting you to understand. As someone who does not believe in Baha'u'llah there is no basis for you to believe this or understand it. As to the last sentence you wrote, a Baha'i employer would definitely hire a homosexual. We are not intolerant or shouldn't be.

Your ill-informed opinion is irrelevant. Homosexuality occurs an many species, so it is clearly not "against nature" but very much a part of nature.
Humans have evolved (or god designed us, if you prefer) in such a way that sex is very pleasurable and we have the urge to move sex even when the female is not ovulating. Therefore it is not only about procreation.

I'm just saying that the species carries on through procreation. I respect that you can see that differently. You're right that sex is not only about procreation. You're also right that other species have homosexiality.

 

[Truthseeker]

Not sure how any of that answers my question.
Why is love based on some deeply shared passion not real love?

Also, that Shaw quote contradicts your claim that love is eternal. He specifically states that it is fleeting.

He falsely thought that all love was fleeting, which is understandable given what his presumed experience was and what others perhaps told him. The key to me was where he used the word "fleeting". Passion is fleeting, it does not last. Spiritual attraction lasts. At the beginning of my marriage with Sara, there was some passion, some emotional bonds, but all along there was also some spiritual basis for our marriage. I can tell because we love each other after 40 years.

The fourth is the love of man for man. The love which exists between the hearts of believers is prompted by the ideal of the unity of spirits. This love is attained through the knowledge of God, so that men see the Divine Love reflected in the heart. Each sees in the other the Beauty of God reflected in the soul, and finding this point of similarity, they are attracted to one another in love. This love will make all men the waves of one sea, this love will make them all the stars of one heaven and the fruits of one tree. This love will bring the realization of true accord, the foundation of real unity.

But the love which sometimes exists between friends is not (true) love, because it is subject to transmutation; this is merely fascination. As the breeze blows, the slender trees yield. If the wind is in the East the tree leans to the West, and if the wind turns to the West the tree leans to the East. This kind of love is originated by the accidental conditions of life. This is not love, it is merely acquaintanceship; it is subject to change.

Today you will see two souls apparently in close friendship; tomorrow all this may be changed. Yesterday they were ready to die for one another, today they shun one another's society! This is not love; it is the yielding of the hearts to the accidents of life. When that which has caused this 'love' to exist passes, the love passes also; this is not in reality love.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 180)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I've read about some gay Baha'is that weren't accepted. I posted a link a few pages ago.

I can only live the Message of Baha’u’llah as I see I must CG.

If one is a Baha'i, it is very difficult to not live by the Law. I have been in that frame of mind in one part of my journey CG, in the end you suffer because of poor choices, if you are only a Baha'i playing lip service to laws. The laws must be part of your life.

"O servant of God! The day of deeds hath come: Now is not the time for words." (Baha'u'llah, Tabernacle of Unity, paragraph 5.5 p. 73)

"Beware, O people of Baha, lest ye walk in the ways of them whose words differ from their deeds. Strive that ye may be enabled to manifest to the peoples of the earth the signs of God, and to mirror forth His commandments. Let your acts be a guide unto all mankind, for the professions of most men, be they high or low, differ from their conduct" (Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah CXXXIX, p. 305)

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

they are free to do that

Why am I (or anyone else) not free to hold to a different opinion?

You are doing just that, so something of a straw man. However your opinion can easily be demonstrated as pernicious, whilst being gay is not in any practical way harming anyone. You also have a choice, whereas being gay is not.

If someone holds a racist opinion that is their right, expressing it in a way that harms persecutes or discriminates against others is not a right they should have though, or at least it shouldn't be in any decent society.

People have no choice in their skin colour or ethnicity, or their sexual orientation, they do have some choice in their beliefs and opinions.

 

[Truthseeker]

Baha'is homophobia is hardly beautiful. Of course, if one chooses to disregard the ugly parts, what's left may be upbeat.

The Baha'i Faith is not homophobic. Homophobic : irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or gay people. Definition of HOMOPHOBIA

We are not taught to have fear of homosexual people, or have aversion of them, and we are taught not to discriminate.

What's happening here is a challenge to Baha'is to reconcile their desire to be loving with doctrine that is not. It is the believer trying to depict the religion more favorably by downplaying the ugly parts. That's what you are calling the worst possible light. He's shining the light on inconvenient scripture and showing how it affects believers who think it has no damaging effect on their views of homosexuals. Of course that's uncomfortable, but that's inevitable in a process like this.

On the contrary, what I see in this thread is this particular person who is not a Baha'i depicting our position is the worst light. I have not looked at very many responses, but I have been honest in my appraisal. That's the way I am built, that's a characteristic of those on the autism spectrum.

To see what bigotry looks like, refer to the scriptures that irrationally and destructively condemn all gay people for the crime of being gay.

Our scriptures don't do that. It is not about being gay, it is engaging in homosexual relations. As the following shows, we are to help, advise and sympathise with people within our faith community who do this. The person who is gay within our faith is not encouraged to think badly of themselves.

"No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong.
Various, "Lights of Guidance", 29.1223.1

"Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history, is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex. Homosexuality, according to the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, is spiritually condemned. This does not mean that people so afflicted must not be helped and advised and sympathized with. It does mean that we do not believe that it is a permissible way of life; which, alas, is all too often the accepted attitude nowadays."

"We must struggle against the evils in society by spiritual means, and medical and social ones as well. We must be tolerant but uncompromising, understanding but immovable in our point of view."

"The thing people need to meet this type of trouble, as well as every other type, is greater spiritual understanding and stability; and of course we Bahá'ís believe that ultimately this can only be given to mankind through the Teachings of the Manifestation of God for this Day."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, May 21, 1954)

No, decent people everywhere are calling out the homophobic religions. Isn't that what we're all doing here? Isn't that what I'm doing? Theists spouting homophobic religious beliefs or promoting religions are homophobia are on the wrong side of this aspect of the culture war between religion and humanism.

As a believer, I find it understandable that those who are not religious don't understand that people who engage in homosexual acts harm themselves spiritually. We just ask for tolerance that we believe differently than you do.

 

[Sheldon]

homosexuality is not about being in a minority group that wants to live their life with the partner of their choice, making a life, raising a family and growing old together...... its about sex.

Straw man, since no one denied sex was involved. Your attempt to force someone's sexual orientation into a facile descriptor like sex, just so you can condemn is idiotic of course.

All religious bigotry is idiotic of course, but have no problem with anyone holding idiotic beliefs, where I draw the line is when they are pernicious, and expressed publicly in a harmful demeaning or discriminating way against who a person is.

This is the facile reasoning of religious apologetics of course, that deals in absolutes, when expressing subjective beliefs. Sadly not all those beliefs are innocuous fantasies. They can and do cause real practical harm.

There are gay people who post here for example, and having who they are decried as abhorrent or someone less than the majority, just because they happen to have been born gay, is a vile immoral act.

And though I'm an atheist, I wouldn't change that opinion if a deity existed, and demonstrated it felt that way.

I guess I just care more about empathising with the suffering of others than many theists do.

Yet they can cry an ocean of crocodile tears over the termination of an insentient blastocyst, baffling. Especially since 2 to 4 percent of those embryos would be born gay.

 

[Sheldon]

We are absolutely 100% sure that homosexuality is immoral and unacceptable because God has confirmed this with those who believe in Him.

Closed minded bigots are always 100% certain of course, that's the nature of bigotry, as it has no rational basis.

Nice circular reasoning fallacy as well, amply proving my point about the irrational nature of religious bigotry.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Is the Baha'i belief about homosexuality backed by science? Or is it possibly a superstitious belief?

Fertility rates of heterosexual couples over a one year period are about 80 - 85%. Fertility rates for homosexual couples over a one year period are exactly 0 %. Science establishes a strong co-relationship between fertility and heterosexual intercourse and a non-existent relationship between homosexuality and fertility.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If your teachings serve as ammunition against you, perhaps it's time to rethink your teachings.
In my opinion.

Thank you for the invitation to reconsider my faith, but I'm not about to jump ship any time soon.

 

[Dawnofhope]

We know Baha'is believe it's wrong to "play" with oneself. But how many Baha'is abide by that?

I'm not aware of any Baha'i law that explicitly forbids masturbation.

So sure, you can say there are great benefits for a person that leads a chaste and holy life. But we're not talking about people that want to be the holy and spiritual. Even people that are in a religion like Christianity or the Baha'i Faith want to be somewhat spiritual, but they can't completely stay away from doing something sexual.

It certainly is an issue for many of us.

So, why is that? Is there a physical need to get "off"?

Yes

And are there any problems, physically or mentally, that happen to those that try as hard as they can not to think it or do it?

Probably, Yes.

In other words, is there such a thing as being sexually repressed?

Probably, Yes.

Does it cause emotional problems?

Probably, Yes.

It seems that it does for a gay person... to repress their feelings and never, ever express them.

Probably, Yes.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thank you for the invitation to reconsider my faith, but I'm not about to jump ship any time soon.

Regards Tony

 

[Brian2]

Well, yeah, but it's a thing.

But if you don't like doing it then maybe it shouldn't be a thing in your sex life.