Homosexuality and religious.

[Sheldon]

If you have already done so and come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong then nothing I say will convince you.

We know the man who wrote your religion's texts was human, and if you want to claim otherwise then the epistemological burden is on you to evidence this, not on me to disprove the claim. To claim anything has credence because it can't be disproved is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.

Each individual can only find truth for himself not another.

Strongly disagree, have you ever heard of science?

You must investigate truth for yourself and be content with the result of your investigation.

So you don't seek medical care until you have attained the necessary knowledge and expertise then? Again I strongly disagree, in the modern era we must of necessity rely on the objective expertise of others, you don't service your own car, build your own house, or take out your own appendix.

I cannot do your thinking for you as you have to answer your own specific questions.

Yet you keep making sweeping unevidenced claims, as if these carry credence simply by the act of asserting them.

only you can teach yourself.

Again I strongly disagree.

I cannot teach or prove anything to anyone but myself.

Again I strongly disagree, you have heard of schools right, and teachers, how about science?

 

[loverofhumanity]

How does a ban on homosexuality further these goals? It seems like it's off message to me.

The world today is submerged, amongst other things, in an over-exaggeration of the importance of physical love, and a dearth of spiritual values. In as far as possible the believers should try to realize this and rise above the level of their fellow-men who are, typical of all decadent periods in history, placing so much over-emphasis on the purely physical side of mating. Outside of their normal, legitimate married life they should seek to establish bonds of comradeship and love which are eternal and founded on the spiritual life of man, not on his physical life. This is one of the many fields in which it is incumbent on the Bahá’ís to set the example and lead the way to a true human standard of life, when the soul of man is exalted and his body but the tool for his enlightened spirit. Needless to say this does not preclude the living of a perfectly normal sex life in its legitimate channel of marriage.

 

[CG Didymus]

Flagrant violation of Baha'i laws is problematic for the Baha'is who break them and the Baha'i Assemblies who administer those laws. It is the same principle whether sex before marriage, adultery or a gay couple. If it is flagrant then Baha'i Assemblies are duty bound to respond.

Yeah, if they did it in secret, who's going to know? But gays don't want to keep what they do and what they are a secret. So, is what they do really as immoral and evil as the Baha'i writings say? If so, why didn't God keep having them killed? If what they do is so wrong, why accept them at all? Why not tell them they aren't welcome in God's religion?

But you do welcome them. So, why not welcome them all the way in? But you can't, because you do believe their lifestyle is immoral and wrong. And to be a Baha'i, they can't continue living like that.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But not everyone has been treated justly and fairly. Some groups of people haven't been treated justly or fairly. How would the Baha'i Faith judge what has happened to the native people in your country, Australia and in my country, the U.S.? What would be just and fair?

And is it fair to lump homosexuality with adultery?

The Baha’i teachings state to give minority races priority.

Both are considered immoral by Baha’u’llah.

 

[CG Didymus]

If one is offering opinions contrary to current guidance given by the Universal House of Justice, in the public arena, there is no other word to use.

All believers can get an answer from the Universal House of Justice, without the fanfare.

All the best CG. Regards Tony

A group of gay Baha'is wrote a letter to their NSA and never got a response.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Baha’i teachings state to give minority races priority.

Both are considered immoral by Baha’u’llah.

But then what? What just and fair? Give them the land back? Give them their culture back? Lots of stuff was taken from them. I think the best we can hope for is... from now on we'll treat each other fairly.

 

[Sheldon]

It is becoming apparent that large part of RF is not into Faith.

Well opposing viewpoints are a necessary part of debate. There are multiple forums on this site that are not for debate.

A place a person of Faith, should most likely avoid

Well that's not really your call is it.

 

[samtonga43]

analogy: a comparison of things based on ways they are alike
analogy means - Google Search
Since they are not alike torturing babies is not analogous to depriving people of sex.

There is a sense in which the two statements are analogous.
In A's opinion, depriving people of sex is not wrong.
In B's opinion, torturing babies is not wrong.

Of course torturing babies is not like depriving people of sex. Only a very shallow thinker would think that this is any kind of analogy. No, the analogy lies elsewhere. Think about it.

You have missed the point entirely, as usual.

 

[Vinayaka]

Here's another link to a long story on the fellow doing the utube videos on this topic. It's a long and sad read, but worth the while if this topic still interests you.

Meet A Baha’i Activist Pushing For LGBTQ Tolerance In His Faith

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Fertility rates of heterosexual couples over a one year period are about 80 - 85%. Fertility rates for homosexual couples over a one year period are exactly 0 %. Science establishes a strong co-relationship between fertility and heterosexual intercourse and a non-existent relationship between homosexuality and fertility.

Is it any concern of yours or any other Baha’i followers whether homosexuals have children or not? What gives you the right to piously judge other consenting adults—gay or straight—on whether they have children of their own or not? Personally, I find it distressing that some religious groups, such as the Baha'i faith and evangelical Christians, are too preoccupied with the sex lives of homosexuals. Instead of fixating on the love lives of homosexuals, I suggest they find a new hobby or concentrate on anything else productive to do with their free time. You, any other adherent of the Baha'i faith, or an evangelical Christian for that matter, have no business worrying about what consenting adults—gay or straight—do in terms of physical intimacy in the privacy of their own bedrooms. It seems to me that these pompously religious followers should be more concerned with the log in their own eye before they worry about the speck of dust in someone else's eye, regardless of whether that person is homosexual or not. As the old adage says, "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." In other words, mind your own business and keep your pious nose out of where it doesn't belong.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
Nope, you must have ignored or not read much of the thread for your claim to be a candid opinion. Your belief in a deity is not relevant to the claim.

It is100% applicable.

No it isn't, Baha'is have posted homophobic claims in this thread, that is a fact independent of your personal subjective religious beliefs.

With no God, there is no Law.

Nonsense, we have laws in secular democracies all over the world.

No more needs to be offered.

On the contrary, you need to reach the thread, and you need to offer something beyond bare assertion, this is a debate forum, but even were it not, no one is obliged to accept bare claims.

 

[Vinayaka]

Well opposing viewpoints are a necessary part of debate. There are multiple forums on this site that are not for debate.

Well that's not really your call is it.

I, an avowed theist, of a non-Abrahamic faith, am also accused of not having faith. There is some irony in that. I've also been accused of having an anti-Bahai agenda. This when I'd never heard of it until coming here. Shucks darn, eh. There seems to be no winning, only whining.

 

[CG Didymus]

Reading through the threads, it struck me as ironic that the folks truly impacted by this discussion weren't present. The folks I refer to are gay Baha'i, or gay folks looking into the faith. You had mentioned one person still active, but that seemed like confirmation bias to me, so I did my digging. Just today I found another one, which is an entire channel chronicling the struggles and challenges of gay Baha'i. You might be interested.

I've long been an advocate of LGBQT rights, and am encouraged that since 2006 the number of countries where there are laws discriminating against homosexuality has dropped from 92 to 70. That shows some progress, but obviously we still have a long ways to go. It will be interesting to me to follow the fellow in the video, to see if he gets any shifts in policy within your faith community.

Edited to add ... world map, document showing where it's sill illegal.
Nations with anti-LGBT laws: 49% Muslim, 44% Christian

That is very telling of the problem. One Baha'i won't watch the video, because he doesn't want to hear the complaints of some "disgruntled" gay Baha'i. And now, "that's 22 minutes of my life I'll never get back"? Why are the non-Baha'is more open to listening and hearing what they have to say? Baha'is have to be able to get in there without the prejudices and biases of their religion and just listen to what they have to say.

 

[loverofhumanity]

We know the man who wrote your religion's texts was human, and if you want to claim otherwise then the epistemological burden is on you to evidence this, not on me to disprove the claim. To claim anything has credence because it can't be disproved is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy.



Strongly disagree, have you ever heard of science?



So you don't seek medical care until you have attained the necessary knowledge and expertise then? Again I strongly disagree, in the modern era we must of necessity rely on the objective expertise of others, you don't service your own car, build your own house, or take out your own appendix.



Yet you keep making sweeping unevidenced claims.



Again I strongly disagree.



Again I strongly disagree, you have heard of schools right, and teachers, how about science?

Yes Baha’u’llah appeared in human form to be able to communicate God’s guidance to us.

In every world, He appears according to the capacity of that world. For example, in the world of spirits He manifests Himself to them and appears unto them with the signs of the Spirit. So, likewise, in bodies in the world of names and attributes.

Verily, were God the Exalted to appear in His (proper) grade and form, and in a manner befitting His Station, no one could ever approach Him or endure to be near Him. (Baha’u’llah)


PRE-EXISTENCE—of Prophets
The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.


Science is truth but we are always learning new things. God’s knowledge encompasses both science and religion and anything God reveals through His Messengers may be as of yet unproven by us humans but is regardless, true I believe.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The poor fellow even begged to get back in, and they let him, with conditions. These stories are painful to watch. But just as the UHJ ignored his plea, so too will ordinary Baha'is ignore him, and any other 'disgruntled' Bahai.

Tells you a lot, really.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I, an avowed theist, of a non-Abrahamic faith, am also accused of not having faith. There is some irony in that. I've also been accused of having an anti-Bahai agenda. This when I'd never heard of it until coming here. Shucks darn, eh. There seems to be no winning, only whining.

You are not anti Baha’i you just don’t agree with some of our beliefs. That doesn’t make you anti. I consider you a friend and I’m grateful for many things I learned from you.

 

[Vinayaka]

That is very telling of the problem. One Baha'i won't watch the video, because he doesn't want to hear the complaints of some "disgruntled" gay Baha'i. And now, "that's 22 minutes of my life I'll never get back"? Why are the non-Baha'is more open to listening and hearing what they have to say? Baha'is have to be able to get in there without the prejudices and biases of their religion and just listen to what they have to say.

Uh. Is there a word for 'independent investigation' that means only Baha'i approved resources can be used? I'll have to coin one. Bahainvestigation?

 

[F1fan]

No, it does not suggest that. Baha'i Laws only apply to Baha'is.
Personal opinions are no different from religious beliefs. They also carry no significance in a debate.

What is the unishment to Bahai folks who ignore the laws?

Baha'u'llah does not say that gays are to be condemned, only the sexual behavior is condemned.

Well that's his oinion, why should you not form your own oinions?

 

[Vinayaka]

You are not anti Baha’i you just don’t agree with some of our beliefs. That doesn’t make you anti. I consider you a friend and I’m grateful for many things I learned from you.

More Bahaispeak. Say what seems to please the 'enemy', and maybe they'll go away. The fellow in the video that no Bahai will watch said that when he asked for counsel about being gay, he was told, "Get married and it'll go away!" Is that how you would counsel a gay Baha'i?

I know darn well I'm not anti-Baha'i. I didn't say that, a Baha'i did.

 

[Sheldon]

The world today is submerged, amongst other things, in an over-exaggeration of the importance of physical love, and a dearth of spiritual values.

In order to objectively compare these, you would need to first demonstrate the latter exists at all. Simply making the claim is meaningless.