Homosexuality & Religion

[Pegg]

But they do. The bible condemns homosexuality so Christians condemn homosexuals. What kind of omnipotent god would create such an unjust way of life?

and you blame God for that because...?

Every church does by teaching against homosexuality. As a result, followers will naturally despise homosexuals for being against God.

if christians are despising homosexuals, then they are not really christians. Christ is not responsible for how some so called christians choose to treat their fellow man. We are told to love all people and not be judging them...this includes homosexuals. But a christian must also be weary that they must uphold Gods laws and requirements and this is what a christians baptism is about (or should be about) They are making a determination to live by the laws God sets out...including the law to love our fellow man.

This does not mean we lower Gods standards though to suit non believers and i think this is where the clash begins. christians are bound to uphold Gods laws and standards and this requires that they declare Gods laws....these laws are not compatible with some people and their way of life. But it doesnt mean that we are hostile to those people, we are not and if we were then we are not really fulfilling the law of the Christ.

 

[linwood]

This does not mean we lower Gods standards though to suit non believers and i think this is where the clash begins. christians are bound to uphold Gods laws and standards and this requires that they declare Gods laws....these laws are not compatible with some people and their way of life. But it doesnt mean that we are hostile to those people, we are not and if we were then we are not really fulfilling the law of the Christ.

But Gods law states that you should be hostile to them.

Lev 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
Lev 20:13
If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

Are these not your Gods laws?

Yes, I`m waiting for the ceremonial versus moral schism invented by Christians so they can ignore the actual law their God laid down.

Please don`t disappoint me.

 

[Storm]

and you blame God for that because...?

Didn't you just get through saying that the Bible is the Word Of God, not written by men?

 

[Duck]

Just as you all have a right to your views, so does God. Its been his view for a very long time and its not going to change.

I believe that his view is right for the fact that he created us in a certain way and he knows us best. I'm not going to make any apologies for that but I will apologize that my comments have sparked a riot and so for that reason i'll back out of this discussion and thank you all for your thoughts.

Similarly to the mixing of races (God put the races on different continents so that they wouldn't interbreed) and slavery (dark skin and low intelligence are marks of the sons of Ham and indicate that the natural state of the african is to be slave to the white man) were God's view (as interpreted by a bunch of bigotted people many of whom were christian clergy) in the 1950's and 1850's and not subject to change at all?

 

[Pegg]

But Gods law states that you should be hostile to them.

Lev 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
Lev 20:13
If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

Are these not your Gods laws?

Yes, I`m waiting for the ceremonial versus moral schism invented by Christians so they can ignore the actual law their God laid down.

Please don`t disappoint me.

perhaps if i was an isrealite living under the mosaic law... it shows just how serious the matter was....but you neglect to mention that hetrosexuals who disobeyed the strict sexual laws were also to be put to death.

the reason why God does not require the death penalty anymore is because of Christs sacrifice...but that is another subject probably more suited to the 'Why did Jesus have to die' thread.

 

[Duck]

and you blame God for that because...?



if christians are despising homosexuals, then they are not really christians. Christ is not responsible for how some so called christians choose to treat their fellow man. We are told to love all people and not be judging them...this includes homosexuals. But a christian must also be weary that they must uphold Gods laws and requirements and this is what a christians baptism is about (or should be about) They are making a determination to live by the laws God sets out...including the law to love our fellow man.

This does not mean we lower Gods standards though to suit non believers and i think this is where the clash begins. christians are bound to uphold Gods laws and standards and this requires that they declare Gods laws....these laws are not compatible with some people and their way of life. But it doesnt mean that we are hostile to those people, we are not and if we were then we are not really fulfilling the law of the Christ.

Ahh, the "no true scotsman" defense. Sorry, don't buy it. I fully acknowledge that not all people labelling themselves as christians are anti-gay *******, mostly because I know 3 or 4 personally, and a few more via this forum. My personal experience is that they are the exception, not the rule. IOW, MOST christians (in my experience) are anti-gay and the "no true scotsman" argument should apply to the gay-friendly folks (e.g. the gay friendly folks aren't really "christians").

Evangelicals (Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, Tony Perkins, Fred Phelps and their ilk) and their wholly owned subsidiary the Republican Party truthfully have turned the word "christian" into a pejorative in my mind.

Arguments and discussions in which christians juxtapose my relationships with rape, child molestation and bestiality and suggest that I just need to find god to have a fulfilling longterm sexual and emotional relationship with someone whose body and personality is uninteresting at best (sorry ladies :sarcastic) certainly don't help change my opinion at all.

 

[Duck]

perhaps if i was an isrealite living under the mosaic law... it shows just how serious the matter was....but you neglect to mention that hetrosexuals who disobeyed the strict sexual laws were also to be put to death.

the reason why God does not require the death penalty anymore is because of Christs sacrifice...but that is another subject probably more suited to the 'Why did Jesus have to die' thread.

Actually it is just a cop out as was pointed out. If it really did not apply anymore those ****-nuts that show up at Pride parades with signs quoting that particular verse would be trying to stuff that "natural use" crap you brought up earlier on a poster instead.

Since it is socially inconvenient to run around proclaiming that gays need to be executed most christians leave out the "blood on their heads" part of the Levitical laws, but still quote the abomination part every chance they get.

The only time christians revert to the moral vs cleanliness crap is when asked why they aren't picketing Red Lobster after leaving their picket line for the most recent gay wedding in town, it is pretty convenient to throw out "but those laws were purity laws so they don't apply any more, Jesus fulfilled those ones, the sex one is a moral law, those still apply" so they can nosh shrimp at the buffet.

 

[darkendless]

and you blame God for that because...?

Didn't God inspire the bible or something? Or is the bible not the word of God?

if christians are despising homosexuals, then they are not really christians. Christ is not responsible for how some so called christians choose to treat their fellow man. We are told to love all people and not be judging them...this includes homosexuals. But a christian must also be weary that they must uphold Gods laws and requirements and this is what a christians baptism is about (or should be about) They are making a determination to live by the laws God sets out...including the law to love our fellow man.

So really you don't question God's laws, you live by them and ignore hypocrisy when you come across it and attribute it to gods will?

Why is it that a large percentage of Americans Christians reject equal rights and the right to marriage of homosexuals? Heck, we're just as bad in Australia. Did you watch the Christian parties narrow minded garbage get slaughtered on live tv (channel 7).

This does not mean we lower Gods standards though to suit non believers and i think this is where the clash begins. christians are bound to uphold Gods laws and standards and this requires that they declare Gods laws....these laws are not compatible with some people and their way of life. But it doesnt mean that we are hostile to those people, we are not and if we were then we are not really fulfilling the law of the Christ.

That is the issue yes. We disagree with the hypocrisy and cruel selectiveness Christians display. Christians are hostile and group together to prevent that which they do not like.

 

[Pegg]

Didn't God inspire the bible or something? Or is the bible not the word of God?

its just that i've never read in there that we should be picketing abortion clinics or gay pride marches

just because some people go around doing that does not mean they are doing what God wants them to do.

So really you don't question God's laws, you live by them and ignore hypocrisy when you come across it and attribute it to gods will?

Why is it that a large percentage of Americans Christians reject equal rights and the right to marriage of homosexuals? Heck, we're just as bad in Australia. Did you watch the Christian parties narrow minded garbage get slaughtered on live tv (channel 7).


That is the issue yes. We disagree with the hypocrisy and cruel selectiveness Christians display. Christians are hostile and group together to prevent that which they do not like.

some do that, true

but again, they are not doing it because God told them to do it. Just as muslim suicide bombers are not blowing themselves up because Allah told them to do it.

I trust that God will sort out the wheat from the weeds eventually.

 

[Jeremiah]

when its a lifestyle choice, how is choosing a different path 'ruining lives'? I know more men who's lives were ruined because of the homosexual lifestyle.

But why is it so hard to believe that some homosexuals can choose a different course for the sake of God? God is real to many people...even homosexuals and I really admire those who are willing to make such a sacrifice for God.

" I know more men who's lives were ruined because of the homosexual lifestyle."

And what on this blue and green Earth is a "homosexual lifestyle"? What is this wired perception that you people have about us? We are not some demihuman race, we are just like everyone else. I don't live some "homosexual lifestyle", I live a human lifestyle because I am human like everyone else.

 

[Smoke]

I know more men who's lives were ruined because of the homosexual lifestyle.

Countless lives have been ruined by the heterosexual lifestyle.

 

[Father Heathen]

Sigh. In every debate regarding homosexuality the inevitable comparison to rape and pedophilia always pops up. the obvious reason that rape and pedophilia are wrong is because they victimize innocent people. Homosexual acts between consenting adults do not. So those who try to make such comparisons are either dishonest, stupid or both.

 

[Autodidact]

these sorts of examples are very strong for something biological going on and I honestly believe that if there really is something biological happening within such individuals, then God would not hold them accountable for how they feel about the same sex.

But we are all held accountable for our 'actions' no matter what they are.

Yes, please take that into account next time you try to impose your primitive purity taboos on someone else.

 

[Autodidact]

i appreciate that those 3 examples involve consent, the reason for raising them is because of the point I was making about 'purpose'

Most of us believe that those 3 acts are hideous and would never do them. But the point is that they are being perpetrated every day by people who have a different view to us.

Likewise, just because you have a different view to God about how you think sex should be performed, does not make your view right just as it does not make their view right. This is what im trying to get at.

i'm not going to comment any further because i never intended for this to become a debate. God allows people to live the way they choose but at the same time he reserves the right to state his own standards of what he views as right and wrong...he does that through the bible and you have the right to take it or leave it.

You're mistaken. God never prohibits lesbianism. Not once. He prohibits an awful lot of things, including grabbing the testicles of your husband's wrestling opponent (look it up) but never lesbianism. He prohibits tons of heterosexual behavior, including one practiced by about 30% of evangelical Christians, but never does he prohibit lesbianism or lesbian sex. Zilch. Zero. It's not in there. The only thing that's there is the prejudice of people who assume it must be.

I have a JW friend who was actively homosexual and very well known in the gay community for most of his young adult life....when he decided to become a JW in his mid 30's he openly admitted that he would never marry a woman because he wasnt attracted to women. Thats fair enough, no one is forced to do anything...there is a choice in everything we do.

Poor man--to live without love. What a horrible choice.

 

[Autodidact]

Just as you all have a right to your views, so does God. Its been his view for a very long time and its not going to change.

Nice of God to appoint Pegg to let us know His true views like this.

I believe that his view is right for the fact that he created us in a certain way and he knows us best. I'm not going to make any apologies for that but I will apologize that my comments have sparked a riot and so for that reason i'll back out of this discussion and thank you all for your thoughts.

I believe that in the unlikely event there is any such thing, you have no more insight into what He requires us than anyone else here, so please do back out and stop speaking for God.

 

[Jeremiah]

I agree that religious people should not get involved. The problem comes when homosexuals want to get involved with religion...then it kind of forces the issue.

The JW standpoint is that homosexuals can attend our meetings and they will be welcome, they can also have their own personal bible study. But if they want to become a JW and get baptized, then they have to be willing to adhere to the bibles standard before that can happen. But that goes for hetrosexuals too...singles cant be having sex outside of marriage...there is no difference in the requirement in that regard.

" The problem comes when homosexuals want to get involved with religion...then it kind of forces the issue."

If working towards equality and fair treatment for all, working to stem the growth of intolerance, working to spread acceptance and understanding of normal human differences, is somehow counteractive to your religion. Well then, your religion is not even worth a warm pile of monkey poo and is not worth preserving. True religion advances humanity; it does not drag it down.

 

[Jeremiah]

Countless lives have been ruined by the heterosexual lifestyle.

And countless more when they breed us right into extinction. Who knows, maybe In the future scientist will be racing, trying to figure out how to turn people gay. Just to stem the tide of overpopulation.

 

[Quiddity]

I've made it a point to avoid this topic (and abortion) altogether over the years. It's so charged with emotions that it's nearly impossible to get anything civil going. I've been on the brim of knocking out a gay man (or perhaps he would have knocked me out) for literally wanting to get violent when asked my stance on this. I was never once disrespectful, rude, or anything of that sort. You just can't have this discussion with some in the gay community and its supporters.

Isolated incident? Perhaps.
Tolerance from the tolerant? Probably just fueled.

Are they justified in their frustrations? I'd probably show just as much frustration if I was in their shoes; but it doesn't make it right and it certainly isn't going to help.

Now, I want to emphasize that it is wrong and a serious sin to cruelly treat a homosexual person (had I gotten in a fight, I too would have been guilty) and not differentiate between the sin and the sinner: a human being who deserves and is entitled to love and consideration no matter what sin he has committed, or even defends. I'd venture to guess that not one in a hundred reading this would suggest that homosexuals should be treated poorly, over against, say, adulterers or those who have committed a robbery. That's not advocated among many serious Christians; though there is a significant amount of Christians who do adopt such abominable and unChristian attitude.

So…
1. Homosexual sex is prohibited. Homosexuality is not a sin. In short, it’s a misuse for what it was designed to do; which is both to pro-create and unite in the same way God creates life and unites. All in the context of Him creating us in his own image. It would be akin to designing a fork to do what forks do and then using to dig for holes. Digging holes makes people happy but it still doesn’t mean it was designed for that purpose. Obviously, you have to believe an ordered designed was intended.
2. Apes are not created in the image of God. No serious person looks to apes to establish a sense of morality. Apes also throw feces at each other.

Crosses fingers that this doesn’t go south. I’ll gladly copout out on this one.​

 

[Jeremiah]

I've made it a point to avoid this topic (and abortion) altogether over the years. It's so charged with emotions that it's nearly impossible to get anything civil going. I've been on the brim of knocking out a gay man (or perhaps he would have knocked me out) for literally wanting to get violent when asked my stance on this. I was never once disrespectful, rude, or anything of that sort. You just can't have this discussion with some in the gay community and its supporters.

Isolated incident? Perhaps.
Tolerance from the tolerant? Probably just fueled.

Are they justified in their frustrations? I'd probably show just as much frustration if I was in their shoes; but it doesn't make it right and it certainly isn't going to help.

Now, I want to emphasize that it is wrong and a serious sin to cruelly treat a homosexual person (had I gotten in a fight, I too would have been guilty) and not differentiate between the sin and the sinner: a human being who deserves and is entitled to love and consideration no matter what sin he has committed, or even defends. I'd venture to guess that not one in a hundred reading this would suggest that homosexuals should be treated poorly, over against, say, adulterers or those who have committed a robbery. That's not advocated among many serious Christians; though there is a significant amount of Christians who do adopt such abominable and unChristian attitude.

So…
1. Homosexual sex is prohibited. Homosexuality is not a sin. In short, it’s a misuse for what it was designed to do; which is both to pro-create and unite in the same way God creates life and unites. All in the context of Him creating us in his own image. It would be akin to designing a fork to do what forks do and then using to dig for holes. Digging holes makes people happy but it still doesn’t mean it was designed for that purpose. Obviously, you have to believe an ordered designed was intended.
2. Apes are not created in the image of God. No serious person looks to apes to establish a sense of morality. Apes also throw feces at each other.

Crosses fingers that this doesn’t go south. I’ll gladly copout out on this one.​

You can stow the display. No one is restricting you here and no here is going to hurt you. You are free to say what you want. Just like I am free to tell you what I think of what you say.

"I was never once disrespectful, rude, or anything of that sort. You just can't have this discussion with some in the gay community and its supporters.
"

You don't get it. Just expressing your opinion is being disrespectful, because you have a disrespectful opinion of homosexuals. It is crazy that some of you think that as long as you are polite about it, that should make it OK. Intolerance is intolerance; I don't care how many bows and ribbons you dress it up in.

Would you go up to a black individual and nonchalantly tell them how being black is unnatural, or an overweight individual and tell how much of sin being plus size is?

You people are so rude. I mean, I don't care if you are prejudice, I just don't want to see it. It is unnatural and immoral, keep it behind closed doors please. Think of the children you people are hurting for Christ-sakes.


"1. Homosexual sex is prohibited. Homosexuality is not a sin. In short, it’s a misuse for what it was designed to do; which is both to pro-create and unite in the same way God creates life and unites. All in the context of Him creating us in his own image. It would be akin to designing a fork to do what forks do and then using to dig for holes. Digging holes makes people happy but it still doesn’t mean it was designed for that purpose. Obviously, you have to believe an ordered designed was intended."

Even if there was a god, its "design" would be far beyond your capacity to understand. You certainly would not be in a place to decide that homosexuality went against this supposed design. But, closer to the truth, your god does not exist and you are arbitrarily making things up. This means your sense morality, on this topic,lacks any real wisdom and therefor is worthless.

And, btw, it is my penis, I'll decide how it should be used.

 

[Pegg]

You don't get it. Just expressing your opinion is being disrespectful, because you have a disrespectful opinion of homosexuals. It is crazy that some of you think that as long as you are polite about it, that should make it OK. Intolerance is intolerance; I don't care how many bows and ribbons you dress it up in.

that is the very hypocrisy that christians are accused of right there.

You know, I love vegemite, but not many people outside Australia like it...mostly they hate the taste. Should i be offended when they tell me they dont like vegemite?