Homosexuality & Religion

[Smoke]

that is the very hypocrisy that christians are accused of right there.

You know, I love vegemite, but not many people outside Australia like it...mostly they hate the taste. Should i be offended when they tell me they dont like vegemite?

I don't believe for a second that you're so incredibly stupid as to think that's even comparable.

 

[Jeremiah]

that is the very hypocrisy that christians are accused of right there.

You know, I love vegemite, but not many people outside Australia like it...mostly they hate the taste. Should i be offended when they tell me they dont like vegemite?

We are not talking about food here; we are talking about real live people. Can you tell the difference? Prejudice is wrong and I don't care how you try to spin it. I am not going to respect your beliefs in this matter, because they are ignorant and hurtful. It is insane to think that I should respect your bigotry. You are free to express it all you want, but in no way shape or form am I ever going to respect it. And I am sorry if I get offended by bigotry and prejudice, I guess I am just an oddball that way.

If you are going to tell me that I am evil for simply being a homosexual or that my love is unnatural. Then I am going to take offense to that, as any human being naturally would.

And there is no hypocrisy in that, you have a warped take on this and I am perfectly justified in standing up to you bullies. It would be hypocrisy if my views on homosexual were also as messed up as yours, but they are not. You people have no sense of what you are talking about, as you do not devote any effort to understanding it. All you want to do is spit your venom.

 

[Jeremiah]

It is preposterous to think that prejudice and ingorance should be met with the same respect as understanding and tolerance.

 

[Wotan]

"I'd venture to guess that not one in a hundred reading this would suggest that homosexuals should be treated poorly, over against, say, adulterers or those who have committed a robbery. That's not advocated among many serious Christians; though there is a significant amount of Christians who do adopt such abominable and unChristian attitude."


SO let's get this right. Believing this stuff does NOT necessarily make one a better person. Being a "Cristian" is no different from being a non-Christian except by name.

So what good is believing this mythology? What useful difference does it make if folks who believe or not any better than anyone else?

 

[TEXASBULL]

After all these pages , I think it comes down to this.

I can't find a legitimate problem with people of the same sex having a relationship, but my God says it's wrong. If my God thinks its wrong , then I think it is wrong also. Correct?

Listen, If the ONLY reason you are against something is because it is written in an old book, but you cannot personally find a valid argument for yourself, why would you continue with this position?

I was just like pegg and others for many years and would argue till the cows come home. When all of my arguments ran up against rational responses then my humanity had to take over.

The same goes for bible - war slaughter/ slavery / death for stupid rules / backwards teachings .

There must come a point in your life when your natural wisdom takes over and overrides ancient bible nonsense.

Deep down inside you know I am right. I know this because at the height of my biblical know it all days, I still questioned my beliefs when I saw things that did not make natural since. It is just having the courage to challenge your most holy book and start being open to the possibility that you could be wrong.

You could be wrong. The bible could have been made up by men that never really talked or heard from God.

When you let that possibility enter your mind, my friend, you are taking a huge step and you should be very proud of yourself.

 

[painted wolf]

Not unless they are going to get bent out of shape over Shrimp too.

wa:do

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

that is the very hypocrisy that christians are accused of right there.

You know, I love vegemite, but not many people outside Australia like it...mostly they hate the taste. Should i be offended when they tell me they dont like vegemite?

If they're just telling you that they don't want to have vegemite themselves, no.

If they're telling you that they think nobody should like vegemite, maybe.

If they're telling you that, in their community, they shun anyone who likes vegemite, probably.

If they tell you that, because of their distate for vegemite, they're trying to make it illegal for everyone, hell yes.

 

[Autodidact]

that is the very hypocrisy that christians are accused of right there.

You know, I love vegemite, but not many people outside Australia like it...mostly they hate the taste. Should i be offended when they tell me they dont like vegemite?

What if they told you it was a sin, and contrary to God's will, to eat it?
What if they told you that you should not be allowed to eat it? Or cannot participate in God's community if you continue to eat it?
What if they told you that if you persist in eating vegemite, you should not be allowed to marry? Or serve in the military?

Nobody's asking you to have gay sex if you don't care for it, just to keep your nose out of our love lives.

 

[Meow Mix]

Any church who actively goes about trying to make life hard for homosexuals needs to take a good long look at themselves because that is not their role. Its a good thing that only God judges us because he knows exactly why we do what we do and he will judge us accordingly in true righteousness.

Well I don't see any problem with that.

The problem isn't that someone potentially doesn't like gays or finds it icky or abominable, etc...

The problem is when someone steps up to actually "go about trying to make life hard for homosexuals." Like when the Mormons worked so hard for Proposition 8, or all the attempts to ban homosexual marriages, or attempts by parents and family to try to "rehabilitate" young gays (that's life destroying nonsense!!!).

I could care less if someone disliked homosexuality, even if they said so to my face, so long as we could still be friends and they wouldn't try to politically undermine my rights or anything. There's a difference between agreement and tolerance.

 

[Quiddity]

You are free to say what you want.

It sure doesn't sound like it:

Just expressing your opinion is being disrespectful,

So therefore?........anyone with opposing opinions should ____________[fill in the blank].

Very telling indeed.

Would you go up to a black individual and nonchalantly tell them how being black is unnatural, or an overweight individual and tell how much of sin being plus size is?

I wouldn't do that to a homosexuals either. I find your comparison ridiculous. What blacks went through with gay rights......you should be ashamed.

Even if there was a god, its "design" would be far beyond your capacity to understand. You certainly would not be in a place to decide that homosexuality went against this supposed design. But, closer to the truth, your god does not exist and you are arbitrarily making things up. This means your sense morality, on this topic,lacks any real wisdom and therefore is worthless.

And, btw, it is my penis, I'll decide how it should be used.

Precisely the regurgitating garbage I'm used to hearing.

Have to attack the person instead of staying on topic. Please don't bother responding to my post if you can't stay civil about it.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Well I don't see any problem with that.

The problem isn't that someone potentially doesn't like gays or finds it icky or abominable, etc...

The problem is when someone steps up to actually "go about trying to make life hard for homosexuals." Like when the Mormons worked so hard for Proposition 8, or all the attempts to ban homosexual marriages, or attempts by parents and family to try to "rehabilitate" young gays (that's life destroying nonsense!!!).

I could care less if someone disliked homosexuality, even if they said so to my face, so long as we could still be friends and they wouldn't try to politically undermine my rights or anything. There's a difference between agreement and tolerance.

I agree.

The problem is that those people who do make it harder for Gay people get cover and support from the Christian subcultures of our day. It is sad to say perfectly reasonable people look the other way when gays are being discriminated against. This is due to they're being raised with modern American Christian ideas.

 

[Meow Mix]

So…
1. Homosexual sex is prohibited. Homosexuality is not a sin. In short, it’s a misuse for what it was designed to do; which is both to pro-create and unite in the same way God creates life and unites. All in the context of Him creating us in his own image. It would be akin to designing a fork to do what forks do and then using to dig for holes. Digging holes makes people happy but it still doesn’t mean it was designed for that purpose. Obviously, you have to believe an ordered designed was intended.
2. Apes are not created in the image of God. No serious person looks to apes to establish a sense of morality. Apes also throw feces at each other.

Crosses fingers that this doesn’t go south. I’ll gladly copout out on this one.​

First, I don't care if you think God frowns on homosexuality or think that it's icky as long as you don't partake in political attempts to diminish our freedom. I as an atheist wouldn't vote for a law prohibiting, say, Christians from marrying Christians (crazy hypothetical, but you get the point) so I'd appreciate it if people wouldn't vote for a law prohibiting me from marrying who I love since it's none of their damn business.

1) Why would God care, though, if people used a fork to dig a hole? The fork isn't damaged by it. Nor is sex somehow damaged by homosexual sex. Is oral sex also wrong in this sense, since it's clearly another creative way to use our "tools?" What's the big deal? I mean I get and agree with absolutely that the reason we have our no-no goodies is so that "he" can stick his hoo hoo dilly in "her" cha cha. I get that. That's the purpose of those two organs from an evolutionary standpoint.

But what's wrong with being creative? If a man owns a fork and not a shovel but desperately wants a garden, why the heck can't he use that fork to dig it? How is it damaging to the fork or to the forkmaker if he does so? I don't understand at all! Why is the forkmaker so petty and childish about it?! Same thing for masturbation: it doesn't cause any harm to the systems (within reason, excluding Billy the 16 year old who does it 50 times a day) and it's not like sperm isn't a renewable resource... what the heck is the big deal?

If I get sick from a virus and I have nasty stuff in my throat and I lean over the toilet to spit it out, have I committed a huge sin by using spit for something other than it was intended (digesting food)? I find this concept utterly asinine. Is there a better way you can explain it?

Also our eyes appear to have the purpose of spotting prey and dangers, considering that's what other binocular vision species around the world do. Are we betraying the "intended purpose" of our eyes by looking at a computer monitor for entertainment?

2) Humans throw feces at each other too. I don't see how that's a good point to draw. Other great apes have similar notions of morality to humans, which makes it sort of apparent where ours came from in an evolutionary sense. They're sentient, but not as sentient as us: we're able to better abstract altruism into systems of morality; so I agree they're not really comparable. But studying them helps us to better understand where ours came from.

 

[Father Heathen]

I wouldn't do that to a homosexuals either. I find your comparison ridiculous. What blacks went through with gay rights......you should be ashamed.

Oh, really. And why exactly is it a ridiculous comparison? Both are groups that have routinely been the victims of prejudice and discrimination. Want to know who should really be ashamed? Those who still blindly submit to an institution that has subjected countless thousands of innocent children to unspeakable horrors and then tried to cover it up. Such people are definitely in no position to try and dictate morality to others.

 

[Quiddity]

Well I don't see any problem with that.

The problem isn't that someone potentially doesn't like gays or finds it icky or abominable, etc...

The problem is when someone steps up to actually "go about trying to make life hard for homosexuals." Like when the Mormons worked so hard for Proposition 8, or all the attempts to ban homosexual marriages, or attempts by parents and family to try to "rehabilitate" young gays (that's life destroying nonsense!!!).

I could care less if someone disliked homosexuality, even if they said so to my face, so long as we could still be friends and they wouldn't try to politically undermine my rights or anything. There's a difference between agreement and tolerance.

There is a moral approval dimension to this that is there IMO. It's not just about the legalities. There is a "throw it in your face" about it.

 

[Quiddity]

First, I don't care if you think God frowns on homosexuality or think that it's icky as long as you don't partake in political attempts to diminish our freedom. I as an atheist wouldn't vote for a law prohibiting, say, Christians from marrying Christians (crazy hypothetical, but you get the point) so I'd appreciate it if people wouldn't vote for a law prohibiting me from marrying who I love since it's none of their damn business.

1) Why would God care, though, if people used a fork to dig a hole? The fork isn't damaged by it. Nor is sex somehow damaged by homosexual sex. Is oral sex also wrong in this sense, since it's clearly another creative way to use our "tools?" What's the big deal? I mean I get and agree with absolutely that the reason we have our no-no goodies is so that "he" can stick his hoo hoo dilly in "her" cha cha. I get that. That's the purpose of those two organs from an evolutionary standpoint.

But what's wrong with being creative? If a man owns a fork and not a shovel but desperately wants a garden, why the heck can't he use that fork to dig it? How is it damaging to the fork or to the forkmaker if he does so? I don't understand at all! Why is the forkmaker so petty and childish about it?! Same thing for masturbation: it doesn't cause any harm to the systems (within reason, excluding Billy the 16 year old who does it 50 times a day) and it's not like sperm isn't a renewable resource... what the heck is the big deal?

If I get sick from a virus and I have nasty stuff in my throat and I lean over the toilet to spit it out, have I committed a huge sin by using spit for something other than it was intended (digesting food)? I find this concept utterly asinine. Is there a better way you can explain it?

Also our eyes appear to have the purpose of spotting prey and dangers, considering that's what other binocular vision species around the world do. Are we betraying the "intended purpose" of our eyes by looking at a computer monitor for entertainment?

2) Humans throw feces at each other too. I don't see how that's a good point to draw. Other great apes have similar notions of morality to humans, which makes it sort of apparent where ours came from in an evolutionary sense. They're sentient, but not as sentient as us: we're able to better abstract altruism into systems of morality; so I agree they're not really comparable. But studying them helps us to better understand where ours came from.

I'll take the cop-out route on this. It will probably come with the usual bigot, intolerant, backwards rhetoric it always comes with, but whatever. I simply can't put the time and patience it deserves. I shouldn't have posted in the first place. Besides, this topic rarely makes any progress either way. Just too charged of a topic. It ends up being pats in the back by people who already support it.

Mea culpa for posting in the first place. Some other day.

 

[Father Heathen]

We don't mind opposing viewpoints. We just prefer that they be substantiated with some actual logic and evidence. Refuting the same old fallacies and falsehoods that are repeatedly regurgitated by the willfully ignorant and intellectually dishonest is rather tiring.

 

[Quiddity]

We don't mind opposing viewpoints. We just prefer that they be substantiated with some actual logic and evidence. Refuting the same old fallacies and falsehoods that are repeatedly regurgitated by the willfully ignorant and intellectually dishonest is rather tiring.

With that presupposition, who would want to talk to you? Good luck.

 

[Father Heathen]

With that presupposition, who would want to talk to you? Good luck.

What if I wore a big, gaudy mitre?

 

[Quiddity]

What if I wore a big, gaudy mitre?

Nah, it's ok. You can continue to stifle dialogue by seeing people in such a way. Even if true, I fail seeing how it helps the discussion.

 

[Wotan]

Care to respond to #266. Or is that just SO obvious it needs no response?