Homosexuality & Religion

[Pegg]

I don't think it's an issue of seeking approval, Pegg. There are Christian people who feel it's justified to go out of their way to out, exploit and demean the glbtq community.

Why wouldn't you take the defense if your life choices are under scrutiny? You've stated that you believe Christians should stay away from politics. When they do involve themselves - negative consequences ensue for the glbtq communities.

unfortunately some christian groups do get on a high horse and they go beyond what is required of them and this has bad consequences for everyone.

 

[TEXASBULL]

Has God ever told anyone in an Audible voice that homosexuality was wrong?

 

[Gloone]

Has God ever told anyone in an Audible voice that homosexuality was wrong?

Nope, I think its only real argument is that its not what nature intended. Aside from that I don't see why it really matters.

 

[Pegg]

Has God ever told anyone in an Audible voice that homosexuality was wrong?

No...

 

[gnomon]

Has God ever told anyone in an Audible voice that homosexuality was wrong?

Some claim YES!

Scary, isn't it?

 

[gnomon]

Nope, I think its only real argument is that its not what nature intended. Aside from that I don't see why it really matters.

Forgive me for climbing out on a limb but I doubt you understand "nature".

 

[Meow Mix]

Have I ever not given you a well thought out answer (even if you disagree)? Seriously? You, 9ths_Penguin, and others I make it a point to respond to you guys because you guys are fairly charitable and thoughtful in your posts.

I'm willing to chat about it in a thread but I'm done with this one at the moment. It drained me...

Well, to be honest this is *one* time you haven't given me a well-thought out answer, and I asked several questions that I sort of wanted a perspective on.

I appreciate your opinion on me and 9ths_Penguin (I'm also a fan of Penguin ) and from the exchanges I remember with you (though they've been limited, granted) I've walked away with a positive perspective, too. So I think we're on even grounds of respect here.

I'll respect your decision not to talk about a subject that is potentially (if I try to imagine myself in your shoes) thoroughly involved to defend, especially if it's a touchy subject. I'm not going to belittle you if you decide to step back from it even if you did interject in it. I've made that sort of mistake before, I honestly can't cast stones over it. (I've more than once stepped into an evolution debate to make a comment and then frankly didn't have the energy to combat the anti-evolutionist because I was so tired of the evolution debate).

I just felt like I asked legitimate questions that I wanted an answer or a perspective on -- mostly because I mean it when I say I don't understand the basis for what you said. I truly do not get what drives someone to believe what was said. To be more clear, I can "get" why someone would believe God abolishes something but I don't understand why people wouldn't question the motives of God for abolishing victimless crimes, for instance.

 

[Gloone]

Forgive me for climbing out on a limb but I doubt you understand "nature".

Really?!@#$ Tell me how that is. Nevermind I will take that as a joke.

 

[Meow Mix]

yep i totally agree on that note, christians should lead the way in tolerance...we dont have to agree with the things that go on, but we dont have the right to try and stop others from taking part in them.

christians were never meant to get involved in politics....Jesus never did and he didnt want his followers to either. The way we see it is that as christians, we are pacifists up until the point where we have to make a stance on some point.

See, I have no problem with that. I think religious belief is bad for a person, for instance, but I don't sit here and try to pass laws that would abolish people's ability to have their religious belief. If a law were attempted to be passed that banned X religion from practicing (as long as they weren't hurting anyone intrinsically) I'd be right there with the X-believers protesting such garbage.

I think it's 100% fine if a person thinks homosexuality is wrong, if they totally disagree with it -- even find it disgusting as an act -- but as long as they don't tread on us; they don't vote our rights away or try to torture young homosexuals and so on... then what's the big deal?

People can dislike things about other people but still love the people. I don't have a problem if someone says to my face "I think being a lesbian is wrong" but even though they think that they don't attempt to use political muscle to infringe my equal rights (I respect those who disagree with homosexuality but support their equal rights even more).

I support the rights of those I disagree with, even if I strongly disagree with them. Is it too much to ask the same?

 

[gnomon]

Really?!@#$ Tell me how that is.

I got you to cuss!

I got you to cuss!

I got you to use swear words.....oh yeah!

Anyway.

What do you make of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome? Entirely natural. Human beings born with XY chromosomes but develop as females lacking a uterus and ovaries. They develop breasts!

So..... if naturally these chromosomal males develop breasts, a vagina but lack a uterus and ovaries......what are they? They grow up in society as females and marry males. However, some parts of the country do not recognize such marriages. What do you say?

I say let them stay as nature intended. Exactly who they are as based upon their own determination. What does God say? I guess it depends upon what Bible you are reading.

 

[Storm]

See, I have no problem with that. I think religious belief is bad for a person, for instance, but I don't sit here and try to pass laws that would abolish people's ability to have their religious belief. If a law were attempted to be passed that banned X religion from practicing (as long as they weren't hurting anyone intrinsically) I'd be right there with the X-believers protesting such garbage.

I think it's 100% fine if a person thinks homosexuality is wrong, if they totally disagree with it -- even find it disgusting as an act -- but as long as they don't tread on us; they don't vote our rights away or try to torture young homosexuals and so on... then what's the big deal?

People can dislike things about other people but still love the people. I don't have a problem if someone says to my face "I think being a lesbian is wrong" but even though they think that they don't attempt to use political muscle to infringe my equal rights (I respect those who disagree with homosexuality but support their equal rights even more).

I support the rights of those I disagree with, even if I strongly disagree with them. Is it too much to ask the same?

Exactly.

 

[Gloone]

I got you to cuss!

I got you to cuss!

I got you to use swear words.....oh yeah!

Anyway.

What do you make of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome? Entirely natural. Human beings born with XY chromosomes but develop as females lacking a uterus and ovaries. They develop breasts!

So..... if naturally these chromosomal males develop breasts, a vagina but lack a uterus and ovaries......what are they? They grow up in society as females and marry males. However, some parts of the country do not recognize such marriages. What do you say?

I say let them stay as nature intended. Exactly who they are as based upon their own determination. What does God say? I guess it depends upon what Bible you are reading.

I can cuss if you want me to. Not like I haven't before. I just usually choose not to. I would say that is a mutation of some sorts, it could be cause by a number of things too. I don't know much about it, but some birth defects are not always "natural" like you claim. It could have something to do with foods or certain chemicals a lady or women is around or exposed to during pregnancy. Sometimes without knowing it. But you are really trying to throw in an actual birth defect when this is a debate about homosexuality. I would just say, have you ever herd of overcoming diversity?

 

[Storm]

I would just say, have you ever herd of overcoming diversity?

No. I've heard of celebrating diversity, and I think it's the way to go.

Did you mean "adversity?"

 

[Gloone]

No. I've heard of celebrating diversity, and I think it's the way to go.

Did you mean "adversity?"

No I said it the way I ment it. If you read my previous post you would have also seen that I don't have a problem with people being gay.

 

[darkendless]

that doesnt answer my question.

If we are the most arrogant and ignorant, then why do you feel the need to get our approval?

Usually i just ignore arrogant and ignorant people.

Christianity is painfully hard to ignore. Christians do a good job of shoving religion down everyones throat.

Read my response again. Approval from the most intolerant means the biggest hurdle to jump. Not that anyone really cares about Christianity unless they have to but your organisations do a good job of making yourselves heard whether your opinions are offensive or not.

 

[Gloone]

No. I've heard of celebrating diversity, and I think it's the way to go.

Did you mean "adversity?"

But if you think its adverse then I guess you can call it that too.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

why do homosexuals feel the need for moral approval by christians?

We dont ask athiests for their approval about our belief in God, we dont ask for approval of evolutionists because we disagree that we spontaneously generated on this planet

so why do you seek justifcation from us for your sexual preferences?

Homosexual people do need approval from Christians in one important respect: Christians vote.

Of course I agree that if they try to stop me eating vegemite, then Im going to dig in my heels because thats my right...but not all christians are out to put an end to homosexual activity...i've certainly never held up a placard or been politically active about it, so i dont really appreciate being tarred and feathered for something i've never done nor would do.

You don't have to be that overt to have an effect.

Actually, just being counted as a member of a denomination that condemns homosexuality is enough to send a message to elected officials.

If i'm talking to a homosexual, im not thinking in the back of my mind that this person is a 'homosexual' just as I dont talk to a fornicator and think this person is a 'fornicator', I personally dont care what people want to do in their bedrooms, its their choice and God allows them the freedom to do it so my view is 'who am I to tell them they cant'. They can.

But if they ask me what God thinks of that, then i will tell them the truth as its found in the bible and im not going to sugar coat it and pretend that he approves of it. Just as I wouldnt do that to a hetrosexual who has sex with a different person every night of the week or a married person who is having an affair or a person who takes drugs or a person who steals or a person who is a drunkard....

Exactly what do you think is "the truth as it's found in the Bible"? IMO, unless you're prepared to accept an interpretation that equally condemns shrimp, poly-cotton blends and beard trimming along with homosexuality, the Bible's ambiguous on the subject: there's material that supports both sides.

BTW - you didn't respond to my post before where I pointed out that in the passage in Romans that you quoted, God explicitly ordained that certain people would be homosexual, and it's only Paul, not God, who's recorded as condemning homosexuality.

 

[Storm]

But if you think its adverse then I guess you can call it that too.

Depends on what you mean. Is being queer adversity? Not at all. Is living as a queer person in a deeply homophobic society? Absolutely. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

And I still say that "overcoming diversity" is not only impossible, but immoral.

 

[gnomon]

I can cuss if you want me to. Not like I haven't before. I just usually choose not to. I would say that is a mutation of some sorts, it could be cause by a number of things too. I don't know much about it, but some birth defects are not always "natural" like you claim. It could have something to do with foods or certain chemicals a lady or women is around or exposed to during pregnancy. Sometimes without knowing it. But you are really trying to throw in an actual birth defect when this is a debate about homosexuality. I would just say, have you ever herd of overcoming diversity?

All birth defects are natural.

This is basic science.

I know very well about overcoming diversity. You are talking to a drug addict who was given managership over a store. In control over all the money in that store. Never stole a dime. I went from jail to being a very respected and trusted human being. I doubt at this point you can even understand what it is like overcoming adversity and the **** I've been through.

Now, back to the topic at hand.

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is real. These are primarily human beings raised as girls because they physically resemble all traditional concepts as females. They do not have a vagina nor functioning ovaries. Never mind the fact that on until adulthood they would be recognized as females until fertility tests would reveal that they are chromosomal males. Laws in certain states would state that if they were married to a male than it is a homosexual relationship. What is your view? What does your very limited religious view tell you?

The world does not fit into neat categories. Every human being on this planet is a human being unto themselves never mind sexual categories, gender categories, cultural categories or even worse yet, racial categories.

What religion on this world represents all these people? I know the answer already and the answer is none.

Human beings are human beings. Period. That's it. No mythology or religion will give you a more honest answer than that. End of discussion. Get an education.

 

[Gloone]

All birth defects are natural.

This is basic science.

I know very well about overcoming diversity. You are talking to a drug addict who was given managership over a store. In control over all the money in that store. Never stole a dime. I went from jail to being a very respected and trusted human being. I doubt at this point you can even understand what it is like overcoming adversity and the **** I've been through.

Now, back to the topic at hand.

Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is real. These are primarily human beings raised as girls because they physically resemble all traditional concepts as females. They do not have a vagina nor functioning ovaries. Never mind the fact that on until adulthood they would be recognized as females until fertility tests would reveal that they are chromosomal males. Laws in certain states would state that if they were married to a male than it is a homosexual relationship. What is your view? What does your very limited religious view tell you?

The world does not fit into neat categories. Every human being on this planet is a human being unto themselves never mind sexual categories, gender categories, cultural categories or even worse yet, racial categories.

What religion on this world represents all these people? I know the answer already and the answer is none.

Human beings are human beings. Period. That's it. No mythology or religion will give you a more honest answer than that. End of discussion. Get an education.

you obviously don't know much about science.