Homosexuality & Religion

[Gloone]

@ gnomon

I'm also glad you feel belligerent enough to say I don’t know what diversity or adversity (w/e you want to call it I don't really care ) is when you don’t even know me. If I really cared enough to make that an argument, I’m pretty sure I would have you beat.

 

[linwood]

you obviously don't know much about science.

LOL

 

[Autodidact]

why do homosexuals feel the need for moral approval by christians?

You do realize that many homosexuals are Christian, and many Christians are homosexual, right?

I'm not looking for your moral approval. Indeed, if anything, you seem to be looking for mine. This is a debate forum. Its purpose if to debate things--including morality. If you don't want to debate your morality, don't participate.

We dont ask athiests for their approval about our belief in God, we dont ask for approval of evolutionists because we disagree that we spontaneously generated on this planet

1. Please learn what the Theory of Evolution actually says and stop spreading lies about it; it's immoral.
2. So you've never participated in a debate about creationism and evolution here at RF?

so why do you seek justifcation from us for your sexual preferences?

I don't. I'm debating whether your views are correct. They're not. That's the whole point of RF. Maybe you'd be happier somewhere else, where your views are not subject to debate?

 

[Autodidact]

If i want to become a member of a country club, i have to abide by their rules and regulations.

If I want to deposit my money in a bank, I have to accept their fee structure.

If I want to become a doctor, I have to pass the same exams as everyone else.

Im sorry that the standards found in the bible are not to your liking, but we are all bound by the same standards and laws and no one is forcing anyone to abide by them. Everyone has the choice and if its not your cup of tea then you dont have to drink it. The door swings both ways...in and out.

You mean the standards that you, Pegg, believe are found in the Bible. I have shown that as regards lesbianism, they are not in fact there at all, so apparently what you read in the Bible is a reflection of your own prejudice as to what you expect to find there. Is there a word for that?

 

[Autodidact]

Of course I agree that if they try to stop me eating vegemite, then Im going to dig in my heels because thats my right...but not all christians are out to put an end to homosexual activity...i've certainly never held up a placard or been politically active about it, so i dont really appreciate being tarred and feathered for something i've never done nor would do.

If i'm talking to a homosexual, im not thinking in the back of my mind that this person is a 'homosexual' just as I dont talk to a fornicator and think this person is a 'fornicator', I personally dont care what people want to do in their bedrooms, its their choice and God allows them the freedom to do it so my view is 'who am I to tell them they cant'. They can.

But if they ask me what God thinks of that, then i will tell them the truth as its found in the bible and im not going to sugar coat it and pretend that he approves of it. Just as I wouldnt do that to a hetrosexual who has sex with a different person every night of the week or a married person who is having an affair or a person who takes drugs or a person who steals or a person who is a drunkard....

we are all in the same boat when it comes to what God approves of and what he doesn't... homosexuals are not special in that sense.

So I assume you support full equal rights for gay people, including same-sex marriage and an end to DADT?

 

[Autodidact]

I got you to cuss!

I got you to cuss!

I got you to use swear words.....oh yeah!

Anyway.

What do you make of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome? Entirely natural. Human beings born with XY chromosomes but develop as females lacking a uterus and ovaries. They develop breasts!

So..... if naturally these chromosomal males develop breasts, a vagina but lack a uterus and ovaries......what are they? They grow up in society as females and marry males. However, some parts of the country do not recognize such marriages. What do you say?

I say let them stay as nature intended. Exactly who they are as based upon their own determination. What does God say? I guess it depends upon what Bible you are reading.

I think you misunderstood Gloone. He is not arguing that homosexuality is unnatural, he's just referring to that argument.

 

[linwood]

the reason why God does not require the death penalty anymore is because of Christs sacrifice...but that is another subject probably more suited to the 'Why did Jesus have to die' thread.

Thank you for not disappointing.

You do realize this doctrine of moral/ceremonial law is not in the least Biblical, don't you?

In fact Jesus himself stated that he came not to abolish the law but to strengthen it.
His words were that not one jot or tittle should be removed or ignored and yet here you are creating excuses to remove and ignore Gods law.

I truly wish more Christian actually gave some respect to words.

 

[gnomon]

you obviously don't know much about science.

I think you misunderstood Gloone. He is not arguing that homosexuality is unnatural, he's just referring to that argument.

If he is referencing that argument and not adhering to it than I shall eat crow.

Won't be the first time.

Really sucks because I thought I was doing so good tonight with my J.D. Single Barrel.

Anyway.........for Gloone. If you were not agreeing with the "natural" argument that many opposed to homosexuality make than I apologize. Than I shall take my crow with a fine barbecue sauce.

If not. Than my point still stands.

 

[Gloone]

I think you misunderstood Gloone. He is not arguing that homosexuality is unnatural, he's just referring to that argument.

Thank you Autodidact! I’m glad someone understands me, because no one else seems to.

 

[Gloone]

If he is referencing that argument and not adhering to it than I shall eat crow.

Won't be the first time.

Really sucks because I thought I was doing so good tonight with my J.D. Single Barrel.

Anyway.........for Gloone. If you were not agreeing with the "natural" argument that many opposed to homosexuality make than I apologize. Than I shall take my crow with a fine barbecue sauce.

If not. Than my point still stands.

Apology accepted.

 

[gnomon]

Thank you Autodidact! I’m glad someone understands me, because no one else seems to.

Well I have misquoted you. I thought you were agreeing with the notion of a natural bent against homosexuality.

Since you were not, I am wrong.

 

[Gloone]

Well I have misquoted you. I thought you were agreeing with the notion of a natural bent against homosexuality.

Since you were not, I am wrong.

ya its fine. its not like it is the first time that it has ever happen lol

 

[gnomon]

Munching on my crow right now.

That's good honey mustard.

Hope they have as good at the bar tonight.

 

[Pegg]

Homosexual people do need approval from Christians in one important respect: Christians vote.
You don't have to be that overt to have an effect.

well i'm a christian and i DONT vote so i dont add my voice to political issues ... and i know at least 7 million others who dont vote.

Exactly what do you think is "the truth as it's found in the Bible"? IMO, unless you're prepared to accept an interpretation that equally condemns shrimp, poly-cotton blends and beard trimming along with homosexuality, the Bible's ambiguous on the subject: there's material that supports both sides.

We know Gods view on the matter by how he dealt with homosexual acts in the past. We know that he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah for the immoral sexual behavior of the inhabitants...we know that homosexuality was involved because the account reads that the men of the city were demanding to have sex with Lots 2 male visitors

we also see in the mosaic law that sex between males, known as the act of 'lying with a man as you would a woman' (the hebrews didnt have a specific word for it as we do today) was condemned by God.
So there is no doubt about how God feels about it....its certainly not ambiguous.

BTW - you didn't respond to my post before where I pointed out that in the passage in Romans that you quoted, God explicitly ordained that certain people would be homosexual, and it's only Paul, not God, who's recorded as condemning homosexuality.

Im not sure how you come to the conclusion that God 'ordained' it. Paul says that males and females "change the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature”

this does not say God changes the natural use of them...it says 'THEY' change the natural use of themselves. But i fear bringing this up again is going to stir the nest so im not going to say anymore about it.

 

[Pegg]

You mean the standards that you, Pegg, believe are found in the Bible. I have shown that as regards lesbianism, they are not in fact there at all, so apparently what you read in the Bible is a reflection of your own prejudice as to what you expect to find there. Is there a word for that?

And what you read in there is between you and God.

 

[Pegg]

Thank you for not disappointing.

You do realize this doctrine of moral/ceremonial law is not in the least Biblical, don't you?

In fact Jesus himself stated that he came not to abolish the law but to strengthen it.
His words were that not one jot or tittle should be removed or ignored and yet here you are creating excuses to remove and ignore Gods law.

I truly wish more Christian actually gave some respect to words.

so long as you realise that the mosaic law code was a 'covenant' between God and the Isrealites.

Jesus presented a 'new covenant' to the christians and it did not include the Mosaic law code. When he told the jews that he did not come to destroy the law he said that because the Messiah was prophesied to 'fulfill' the laws requirement. Because Jesus was the Messiah, he had to live by the Mosaic law and 'fulfill' it right up till his death....this is why he said he did not come to destroy it. If the law was destroyed before he could 'fulfill' it, then he could not have fulfilled it.
But you obviously have a different view of that.

 

[Father Heathen]

Nah, it's ok. You can continue to stifle dialogue by seeing people in such a way. Even if true, I fail seeing how it helps the discussion.

Even if what is true?

 

[ButTheCatCameBack]

For those with facebook. http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=122462384475928#!/event.php?eid=122462384475928

 

[PVE1]

I didn't read any of this thread beside the original post since I don't really have the patience for so many pages! However, I'll try to write out how I feel about it from a Monotheist, Christian / Buddhist perspective.

I do not think people who are gay are less than anyone who is straight just because of their sexuality. I do not think gay people should ever be judged by that by man and it shouldn't alter the way anyone thinks. However, I don't think it's right to try to claim that homosexuality is as morally right as heterosexuality. It's just simply not true. It's not natural in the sense that you are born with the instinct. When I say not natural, I'm not trying to belittle homosexuals but doing things that are "unnatural" do usually lead to dangers or are dangers in themselves. As for why God would care about homosexuality, I do not think He cares as much as we think we do. However, from the gays I have known in my life, there is a measure of lust within it. I think that since homosexuality isn't really considered "normal" in the West, it is difficult for them to establish themselves as it, even when they could be. Sure, married people divorce, couples cheat on each other, etc. but I do think the level of lust in homosexuality is a bit higher than heterosexuality.

I'd hate to use the "I have gay friends card so it's ok for me to criticize them" but I want to make sure I don't intentionally offend anyone because I don't judge people for anything.

 

[JustAsking]

I didn't read any of this thread beside the original post since I don't really have the patience for so many pages! However, I'll try to write out how I feel about it from a Monotheist, Christian / Buddhist perspective.

I do not think people who are gay are less than anyone who is straight just because of their sexuality. I do not think gay people should ever be judged by that by man and it shouldn't alter the way anyone thinks. However, I don't think it's right to try to claim that homosexuality is as morally right as heterosexuality. It's just simply not true. It's not natural in the sense that you are born with the instinct. When I say not natural, I'm not trying to belittle homosexuals but doing things that are "unnatural" do usually lead to dangers or are dangers in themselves. As for why God would care about homosexuality, I do not think He cares as much as we think we do. However, from the gays I have known in my life, there is a measure of lust within it. I think that since homosexuality isn't really considered "normal" in the West, it is difficult for them to establish themselves as it, even when they could be. Sure, married people divorce, couples cheat on each other, etc. but I do think the level of lust in homosexuality is a bit higher than heterosexuality.

I'd hate to use the "I have gay friends card so it's ok for me to criticize them" but I want to make sure I don't intentionally offend anyone because I don't judge people for anything.

I'm sorry to pick apart your post, but I feel some of your points are, misguided. I know we all believe what we believe but in the spirit of debating....

"I don't think it's right to try to claim that homosexuality is as morally right as heterosexuality."

All I can ask is, by whose morals? Those morals you speak of are not universal. I understand these are your morals, but that doesn't necessarily make them the "popular" ones.

"It's not natural in the sense that you are born with the instinct."

If penguins can be "gay", I'm not sure how you can make this claim. There are many other examples in nature (read: not in humans). So it would seem it does occur naturally and by extension, at least some of the human homosexual examples _are_ natural.

"I do think the level of lust in homosexuality is a bit higher than heterosexuality."

I'm not sure how you can make this claim. You probably aren't homosexual so I'm guessing you aren't speaking from experience. Is this just a conclusion you've come up with to help reason away homosexuality as being, less than "right"? Maybe there was a study I'm not aware of, but this sounds like a biased assumption.

I appreciated your comments. As a whole, you're a lot more open minded than a lot of people I know. That being said, there is always room to debate!