HOMOSEXUALITY: What the Bible Does & Does Not Say

[Elvendon]

Arrow:

The full quotations from Corinthians is

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Note it says "homosexual offenders" not just "homosexuals" as you suggested Arrow. This could indicate that this passage is distinguishing homosexuals who lead promiscuous, pederastic or slave-master sex lives (who were offensive unto God for obvious reasons) to more reserved, monogamous homosexuals.

Even if you don't accept this - the fact remains that homosexuality in the New Testament times was not considered to ever be an exclusive, loving relationship between two equals - it was either pederastic (between young boys and older men) or as a form of extra option that a freeman could perform on a slave. It would only ever be the freeman sodomising his slave (the other way around was considered highly embarassing for the freeman, as it was more an act of dominance than an act of love) and if ever two freemen were found having a relationship they would be liable to be executed.

Therefore, Paul would only be likely to be commenting on the homosexual relationships of his communities - that is, ones we would consider immoral in this day and age also - rather than the more responsible ones we are familiar with.

My final question for you Arrow is this - do you consider sex to be an expression of love?

 

[gnostic]

Sorry, Arrow. I had a long night, and didn't get much sleep.

I was referring to the entire message to your post; the first line was to you. I had forgotten to quote almifkhar's post for the 2nd line.

 

[MasterOblivion]

homosexual offenders simply means ne one who participates in homosexual acts. God says many times in the old testement he doesnt approve of homosexual acts and he is simply reminding you.

 

[Deut 13:1]

Just because a scripture from the bible says something about a subject doesn't make it relevant for everyone.
These are from the New testiment and are probably not going to be accepted by any Jewish person as permission to eat pork.

So far your batting a very low .000 BA in the American league. Find me something in scripture that says that homosexuality is okay. So far you're doing an excellent job changing the subject to talking about bacon and pork.

 

[Deut 13:1]

Sin? No. I would just say it is not my cup of tea. It’s not my place to judge gays or lesbians, just because homosexuality is not my preference.

Pulling bible's quotations here and there, particularly from the Moses' books, is senseless, since these laws were mainly reserved for the Israelites/Jews, not Christians.

Do Christians obey every single law in the Torah? No. Do all Christians follow the laws in regarding to Sabbath and to circumcision, or prohibit from eating pork (as the example being used already)?

Beside, not everyone likes tea.

Have you ever even read the Torah? Christians are not bound by the same laws the Jews are, they're bound by the Noahide Laws. Trying to say that Christians should be shomer shabbas only shows your complete ignorance on the topic of the Torah. Read the Noahide laws, one of them is Gilui Arayot, or sexual immorality.

 

[MasterOblivion]

i agree Duet 13:1. no where in the bible does it aprove homosexualtiy so y would it be ok. when it talks about love and marridge it talks about a man and a women. not once does it say 'and if 2 men marry...'

 

[Elvendon]

homosexual offenders simply means ne one who participates in homosexual acts. God says many times in the old testement he doesnt approve of homosexual acts and he is simply reminding you.

But that point is open to debate. Again, what was understood by "homosexuality" when the Bible was first written is very different to what we understand by it today.

Remember, make everything as simple as it should be, but no simpler!

 

[gnostic]

Have you ever even read the Torah? Christians are not bound by the same laws the Jews are, they're bound by the Noahide Laws.

Yes, I have. At least, twice, but not in a long while. The Torah is not my speciality, especially the books set in Moses' time.

I don't believe in Noah and his Flood. To me, it is just another myth, which the Israelites had adapted from other civilisations like from the Sumerians and Akkadian-Babylonians. There are no records of Noahide Laws, except from interpretations and innuendoes, therefore open to debate. The Noahide Laws has as much substance as the Noah's Ark, which people can't prove to exist, except in the Genesis.

 

[Deut 13:1]

Yes, I have. At least, twice, but not in a long while. The Torah is not my speciality, especially the books set in Moses' time.

You must be a real expert only having read it twice. Maybe I should come to you with my questions... You admit you have almost no understanding of the Torah but are willing to promote your theories as fact. Talk about irony.

 

[gnostic]

You have only ask me if I read it, Deut. And I gave you my answer that I had read it, at least twice (as from "from start to finish"). You didn't ask if I was a specialist or expert or scholar on Judaic laws.

But the whole Torah doesn't interest me. I find the Genesis interesting, and read it numerous times, but the other books in the Torah doesn't fascinate me that much, so that's why I didn't make it my speciality.

Admittedly, I have only read the written Torah, and not the unwritten ones, since I am not a Jew.

 

[Fluffy]

Okay, so you agree that homosexuality is a sin. Good, we're making progess...

Please indicate how you got "you agree homosexuality is a sin" from "It doesn't. That does not invalidate the argument, however. It just means that you happen to be immune to it."

Let me put it another way. All you have demonstrated is that we cannot condemn somebody for hypocrisy if he is not a hypocrite which is not one of the most enlightening revelations. The fact remains that many people will quote passages from Leviticus or Deuteronomy attacking homosexuality whilst happily ignoring all of the surrounding commandments. This is hypocrisy and so the argument applies to them.

So far your batting a very low .000 BA in the American league. Find me something in scripture that says that homosexuality is okay. So far you're doing an excellent job changing the subject to talking about bacon and pork.

The Bible does not contain a comprehensive list of what is okay. Why does homosexuality require one?

Have you ever even read the Torah? Christians are not bound by the same laws the Jews are, they're bound by the Noahide Laws. Trying to say that Christians should be shomer shabbas only shows your complete ignorance on the topic of the Torah. Read the Noahide laws, one of them is Gilui Arayot, or sexual immorality.

The Noahide Laws are interpreted differently by different people. Gilui Arayot is not always thought to include homosexuality. Besides, it certainly makes no mention of female homosexuality.

However, it is completely unfair to suggest that the Torah alone would give a reader even an inkling as to the Noahide Laws when it is the Talmud that groups and details them. And since the Talmud is not part of the Bible, it is not relevant to this thread (see the thread title).

You must be a real expert only having read it twice. Maybe I should come to you with my questions... You admit you have almost no understanding of the Torah but are willing to promote your theories as fact. Talk about irony.

An ad hominem, whilst a fairly effective rhetorical technique, is still a logical fallacy.

 

[almifkhar]

i shall adress my critics

first off as was pointed out a few posts ago, no where in the bible, anywhere does it say homosexual acts are fine, they state the opposite.

second, homosexual acts cannot create life period. check out ancient jewish traditions as to why creating life is so important.
third, the purpose of homosexual acts being a no no in the laws i quoted from the bible is that all that was mentioned are levels of pervison.
fourth, the bible specifically stated in the paragraph under unlawful sexual realations that the people before were doing these things and that it brought about their downfall. don't believe it, take a good look around our modern western societies.
a final note: a wise man once said that if society is morally corrupt, than it will soon fall to dust.

 

[gnostic]

second, homosexual acts cannot create life period.

You can have a relationship without starting a family. What does that have to do with this?

Is it a law for every relationship to start a family?

Important, it may be. But not everyone marry and not everyone in a relationship want to have children. Even in hetrosexual relationship, doesn't in having children. That's a baseless argument, even from a hetrosexual person. Having children is a matter between two people.

 

[almifkhar]

because family is the most important brick in society.

if partners more and more partners stop having children, what happens? just look to japan for why your argument is a problem.

 

[gnostic]

I think that Christians and Muslims worry too much about things that are really none of their businesses.

A society can't force two hetrosexual people to marry and have children, so why force and threaten homosexuals to become hetrosexuals?

The gay/lesbian issues will never be the norm for any society, so I think Christianity and Islam should stop feeling threatened and self-centred.

Why should it trouble you when it is none of your business? They are not hurting you. It doesn't trouble me, and it is also none of my business too.

 

[almifkhar]

history shows why it is a problem.

personally i don't care if someone wants to be gay or not, i don't recall ever mentioning my personal opinion except for the sentence before this.

 

[Tigress]

because family is the most important brick in society.

if partners more and more partners stop having children, what happens?

They adopt, allowing children already in existence a chance to have a loving family, good food in their bellies or a roof over their heads, etc.

 

[Elvendon]

i shall adress my critics

first off as was pointed out a few posts ago, no where in the bible, anywhere does it say homosexual acts are fine, they state the opposite.

If I may ask a personal question: are you circumcised?

second, homosexual acts cannot create life period. check out ancient jewish traditions as to why creating life is so important.

Ancient JEWISH traditions. They are a (if not the most important) source of guidance, but they are still not designed for the world - they are designed for a single people, in a single context.

So relationships that cannot produce children are not morally permissable? What about infertile heterosexual couples? Are they not allowed to have sex?

third, the purpose of homosexual acts being a no no in the laws i quoted from the bible is that all that was mentioned are levels of pervison.

Again brother - are you circumcised?

fourth, the bible specifically stated in the paragraph under unlawful sexual realations that the people before were doing these things and that it brought about their downfall. don't believe it, take a good look around our modern western societies.
a final note: a wise man once said that if society is morally corrupt, than it will soon fall to dust.

This argument only works if you have already established that they are immoral. I see no logical argument for it being so.

Heres the nub: God is a logical being - otherwise we would be totally unable to relate to him. Therefore, God's ethical provisions must make sense - if they do not, they obviously no longer apply.

 

[wmam]

so you agree with me that it is a sin and who is Kefa?

Yes I do agree that the act in and of itself is a sin and an abomination unto the Most High. I have to apologize for the misspelling of the name of Kepha. To you it is Peter but Kepha was his name as it is in Hebrew.

 

[Arrow]

Sorry that it has taken me awhile to get back to you all.

Therefore, Paul would only be likely to be commenting on the homosexual relationships of his communities - that is, ones we would consider immoral in this day and age also - rather than the more responsible ones we are familiar with.

My final question for you Arrow is this - do you consider sex to be an expression of love?

1) As far as homosexual offenses go, i think that you are reaching on that subject. If God does view homosexuality, is not it a sin? Plus i think the offender part depends on what kind of version you used. Speaking of which what version did you use? I used NKJV
2) Yes i think that sex is an act of love. Biblically speaking it would be the symbolism of a male and a female becoming one in spirit after being married of course. I would almost say that could be a baptism for marriage. (another topic)

The Bible does not contain a comprehensive list of what is okay. Why does homosexuality require one?

First of all, since you are a moderator please do not smite me for challenging your thoughts or something. It is true that the Bible does not contain a list of what is okay, but what is okay to void from the old testament can be rationalized for the most part. If it cannot be rationalized then the apostles went back and said it was ok. Ex pork. Some of the things from the Old Testament still stand like the 10 Commandments. Homosexuality like the rules of fornicating with animals, mother, ect... still stand. There really is no reason in the New Testament that would repeal the act of homosexuality. The Old Testament compares homosexuality with the act of fornicating with animals. I am pretty sure that Jesus would frown upon anybody fornicating with their pets.

On a seperate note, not all of my points have been adressed.
1) the New Testament 1 Cor 6:9-10
2) defying God's design
3) self-moral destruction
4) (if i find another argument)