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Homosexuals should be killed?

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Well I'm not familiar with the oral part of it I just know what I read. Perhaps I'm just taking the whole blood line thing too literally but it is there and making it symbolic doesn't make it sound any better. BTW I'm familiar with the cleansing aspects and repentance from the jewish standpoint but like I said it doesn't make the verses I've pointed out any better.
What you've read is just half of it then. The Oral part is needed.

As for the blood line. Being a Jew doesn't have something to do with just a blood line. One can become a Jew by converting. And even those who are born Jews do not have to be religious Jews. It is much more than that.

As for the cleansing and repentance aspects. It does make the idea quite different. The historical context makes a difference. The entire context makes a difference. Taking a few verses out of context simply does not work. Especially when in context, the death penalty in these circumstances simply are not put into place.
 

Twig pentagram

High Priest
Of course it doesn't. However, Paul "contradicts" Jesus as well, so obviously, we are not looking at something that is set in stone; that is clear cut.

You also have to take the statement that Jesus made in context. Jesus was a Jew. He was preaching to the Jews. Thus, his statement was to the Jews. Jesus wasn't addressing Gentiles. He was addressing Jews.

The Law was meant for the Jews. The Jews are still in favor of following it. So really, what you are saying isn't as clear as you try to make it.
People who follow Jesus believe those words are meant for everybody.
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
My problem with the whole, "Don't take ALL of the Bible literally, cherry pick instead" line of reasoning is the thought of, "Why would God make such a confusing book?"

If we can agree that this is a manmade book with no holy guidance from a perfect God then sure the book should be confusing considering how many different people wrote it. However, if I am too expect that this book was in any way divine, then even IF the texts aren't to be taken literal then surely God would've known that writing literal lines about DEATH and then leaving it up to "fallible humans" to "interpret" it as non literal was an idiot move at best.

If I wrote a letter to my brother saying, "Kill the neighbors because they are witches! If you disobey me ill murder you" Then my brother gets the letter and, because he loves me and fears me, kills the people next door. I would be in some serious crap if this were a court of law and so would my brother. I could argue for centuries about how this was supposed to mean "cleanse" the witches or whatever you think it actually means, but the fact is I had to of known in some way that my brother would of taken those words literally and I would have to be a complete moron to ever write him a letter that contained very, very delicate information in a form that was non literal and would thus have to be "interpreted."
 
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Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I've been drinking since 6 pm, and I'm just going to say something and hopefully I don't get in trouble for it, but I apologize in advance if I do.

I rarely rely on an appeal to emotion in my discussions, but I just wanted to say that the idea of killing two people who love one another -- regardless of whether they are of the same or different sex, race, religious background, whatever -- is absolutely crazy.

I'm an atheist, but I accept the possibility that a god or gods exist. I hold no vehemence towards those who do believe that god(s) exist; I respect their decision to believe so even if from my personal perspective I can't understand why.

What I do know, though, is that my girlfriend means my entire world to me. Now that I'm so close to her, I know that a day that passes by without her is like a day without the life-giving sunlight. I'm not dependent on her, I would survive and maybe find happiness in some forsaken world where she didn't exist, but I'm making an emotional plea to those who doubt the veracity of love between women (or between men).

For those of you who frown on homosexual relationships that have a spouse or someone that fills a part of your life that you didn't know was vacant until that person came along, I understand how you feel about that person. Maybe it's easy to look at a lot of relationships in the world, such as those between teenagers, and to say "That isn't love, these young'uns are just infatuated with one another."

Those of us above our 20's have mostly all had younger friends or family that profess they're in love, but somehow we know better -- having been through the same thing ourselves. "Love" is a powerful word. Some (in my opinion, bright) people enter relationships with the stipulation that the "L" word isn't something that should be used lightly; it's not a word that you should just use at the end of a phone or e-mail conversation because that somehow cheapens it into some catchphrase.

Well, to those that doubt real love is possible between two women (or two men), I implore you to consider otherwise. Sure, there are a lot of homosexuals that just go around having casual sex without any meaning (just as there are heterosexuals that do the same), but our love for one another is just as genuine. My girlfriend and I never use the "L" word unless it's truly meant and comes directly from the deepest, most irrationally emotional part of our hearts.

I love her, and she loves me -- and these aren't cheap token words as are often abused between teenagers. This is real love; if you have a heterosexual spouse that you love, please understand that when we love one another it's just as powerful. It's that one person that you would unquestionably suffer for their wellbeing, you'd take a bullet for them without even thinking, you'd gladly lay down your life so that they may be happy (if it came to that) because they mean so much to you.

Now imagine that some other people told you that they don't approve of your love for your spouse. Imagine that they said it's a cheap love somehow, that it's not real or that it's somehow wrong. Imagine how much that would hurt you. That's how we feel every day.

It's not that public approval is all that we're after. We don't need a piece of paper or a court to tell us that we're committed to one another and that we would like to enter a lifelong contract with one another. Those things are superfluous ultimately.

But in the end, they're still important. We don't ask that people approve of our relationship, we just ask that they don't oppress it. When you (general you) vote for laws and amendments that strip us of our ability to engage in the same legal merits that our heterosexual brethren and sisters enjoy, you are somehow belittling and mocking the love we have for one another. I can't think of anything more harsh. To attempt to legally reign someone in from being with the person that completes them, you're (again, general "you're") essentially kicking them when they're already down.

It's harsh. It's spiteful, even if you have no ill intentions and you think you're just following what you believe your God wants. But free countries are based on the principles of equality for everyone that isn't harming other people, not just equality for those that you agree with.

I really doubt that if you (general you) abstained from voting against gay marriage that Jesus would come down on a cloud of fiery fury. If God, or Jesus, or Allah, or whatever actually exists -- something tells me that they would probably understand that the principles of free countries, the principles of justice, equality, and the persuit of happiness for all people that harm no other people -- are a matter quite separate from whatever religion you may believe in.

You can believe in whatever you want to believe in, but in a free country you have to sometimes protect the freedoms of those that you disagree with as long as they aren't harming you or anyone else.

Homosexual love doesn't harm anyone. I've seen a lot of comparisons to beastiality and pedophilia, such as when people say "If we let homosexuals enter legally recognized social contracts then why shouldn't we also recognize pedophiles and beastiality?" Please understand that the most important difference is in informed consent: homosexuality is between consenting adults who are fully aware and in agreement to their situation, just like with any heterosexual pair that must decide whether or not someone else is right for them or not.

Pedophilia and beastiality inherently consists of nonconsent, either through someone not being of sufficiently developed maturity to make far-reaching decisions such as engaging in intimacy, or because a being is incapable of providing informed consent because they don't possess human-level sentience in order to understand the ramifications of their actions.

For those of you who vote against homosexual equality in terms of civil marriage, have you ever really thought about how the people you oppress feel? I understand that you might believe God or Allah or whoever might disagree with homosexuality in your conception of them, but how is this different from allowing Pagans (or whatever your religion disagrees with) from practicing freely in a country?

If Jesus or Allah or God can forgive you for agreeing with freedom of religion in a country -- even if that god disagrees with something like paganism -- then I'm pretty sure that God will forgive you for agreeing that in a free country, homosexuals should have equal civil rights with heterosexuals. Abstaining from voting against homosexual equality is the same as abstaining from voting against freedom of religion. If you don't think you'd vote against someone's right to worship Pagan gods in order to respect freedom of religion, why would you vote against homosexual rights to enjoy the same civil benefits as heterosexual life partners?
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I just have to ask.

How many were stone for being homosexual?

(Keeping in mind that many believe homosexuality to be genetic, btw.)

Who is this question addressed to? Did they keep records? And what exactly do genetics have to do with it? They would still try to hide it regardless due to the threat of a torturous death.
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
Who is this question addressed to? Did they keep records? And what exactly do genetics have to do with it? They would still try to hide it regardless due to the threat of a torturous death.
Do you always answer a question with a question?
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
I've been drinking since 6 pm, and I'm just going to say something and hopefully I don't get in trouble for it, but I apologize in advance if I do.

I rarely rely on an appeal to emotion in my discussions, but I just wanted to say that the idea of killing two people who love one another -- regardless of whether they are of the same or different sex, race, religious background, whatever -- is absolutely crazy.

I'm an atheist, but I accept the possibility that a god or gods exist. I hold no vehemence towards those who do believe that god(s) exist; I respect their decision to believe so even if from my personal perspective I can't understand why.

What I do know, though, is that my girlfriend means my entire world to me. Now that I'm so close to her, I know that a day that passes by without her is like a day without the life-giving sunlight. I'm not dependent on her, I would survive and maybe find happiness in some forsaken world where she didn't exist, but I'm making an emotional plea to those who doubt the veracity of love between women (or between men).

For those of you who frown on homosexual relationships that have a spouse or someone that fills a part of your life that you didn't know was vacant until that person came along, I understand how you feel about that person. Maybe it's easy to look at a lot of relationships in the world, such as those between teenagers, and to say "That isn't love, these young'uns are just infatuated with one another."

Those of us above our 20's have mostly all had younger friends or family that profess they're in love, but somehow we know better -- having been through the same thing ourselves. "Love" is a powerful word. Some (in my opinion, bright) people enter relationships with the stipulation that the "L" word isn't something that should be used lightly; it's not a word that you should just use at the end of a phone or e-mail conversation because that somehow cheapens it into some catchphrase.

Well, to those that doubt real love is possible between two women (or two men), I implore you to consider otherwise. Sure, there are a lot of homosexuals that just go around having casual sex without any meaning (just as there are heterosexuals that do the same), but our love for one another is just as genuine. My girlfriend and I never use the "L" word unless it's truly meant and comes directly from the deepest, most irrationally emotional part of our hearts.

I love her, and she loves me -- and these aren't cheap token words as are often abused between teenagers. This is real love; if you have a heterosexual spouse that you love, please understand that when we love one another it's just as powerful. It's that one person that you would unquestionably suffer for their wellbeing, you'd take a bullet for them without even thinking, you'd gladly lay down your life so that they may be happy (if it came to that) because they mean so much to you.

Now imagine that some other people told you that they don't approve of your love for your spouse. Imagine that they said it's a cheap love somehow, that it's not real or that it's somehow wrong. Imagine how much that would hurt you. That's how we feel every day.

It's not that public approval is all that we're after. We don't need a piece of paper or a court to tell us that we're committed to one another and that we would like to enter a lifelong contract with one another. Those things are superfluous ultimately.

But in the end, they're still important. We don't ask that people approve of our relationship, we just ask that they don't oppress it. When you (general you) vote for laws and amendments that strip us of our ability to engage in the same legal merits that our heterosexual brethren and sisters enjoy, you are somehow belittling and mocking the love we have for one another. I can't think of anything more harsh. To attempt to legally reign someone in from being with the person that completes them, you're (again, general "you're") essentially kicking them when they're already down.

It's harsh. It's spiteful, even if you have no ill intentions and you think you're just following what you believe your God wants. But free countries are based on the principles of equality for everyone that isn't harming other people, not just equality for those that you agree with.

I really doubt that if you (general you) abstained from voting against gay marriage that Jesus would come down on a cloud of fiery fury. If God, or Jesus, or Allah, or whatever actually exists -- something tells me that they would probably understand that the principles of free countries, the principles of justice, equality, and the persuit of happiness for all people that harm no other people -- are a matter quite separate from whatever religion you may believe in.

You can believe in whatever you want to believe in, but in a free country you have to sometimes protect the freedoms of those that you disagree with as long as they aren't harming you or anyone else.

Homosexual love doesn't harm anyone. I've seen a lot of comparisons to beastiality and pedophilia, such as when people say "If we let homosexuals enter legally recognized social contracts then why shouldn't we also recognize pedophiles and beastiality?" Please understand that the most important difference is in informed consent: homosexuality is between consenting adults who are fully aware and in agreement to their situation, just like with any heterosexual pair that must decide whether or not someone else is right for them or not.

Pedophilia and beastiality inherently consists of nonconsent, either through someone not being of sufficiently developed maturity to make far-reaching decisions such as engaging in intimacy, or because a being is incapable of providing informed consent because they don't possess human-level sentience in order to understand the ramifications of their actions.

For those of you who vote against homosexual equality in terms of civil marriage, have you ever really thought about how the people you oppress feel? I understand that you might believe God or Allah or whoever might disagree with homosexuality in your conception of them, but how is this different from allowing Pagans (or whatever your religion disagrees with) from practicing freely in a country?

If Jesus or Allah or God can forgive you for agreeing with freedom of religion in a country -- even if that god disagrees with something like paganism -- then I'm pretty sure that God will forgive you for agreeing that in a free country, homosexuals should have equal civil rights with heterosexuals. Abstaining from voting against homosexual equality is the same as abstaining from voting against freedom of religion. If you don't think you'd vote against someone's right to worship Pagan gods in order to respect freedom of religion, why would you vote against homosexual rights to enjoy the same civil benefits as heterosexual life partners?

Wow, Meow Mix, that was a really great post! Maybe you should have a drink or two everytime before you post, lol! I wholeheartedly concur. Everywhere, but especially in America, the land of the free(?), everyone, regardless of race, sex, religion, sexual orientation, political affiliations, etc., etc. should be free to live their life how they want and people should accept each other, love each other, and live and let live! I think that is what Jesus would say, too, as he did say just love God and love each other and that was cool. If everybody could at least love each other and stop the hatin', the world would be a much nicer place.

People should be free to marry whom they want (or not), and people should quit trying to pass "morality laws" cuz they think Jesus or Allah or whoever would reign kudos on their heads or whatever. And people should stop using scripture to justify their hatred and persecution of others who are different than them. Get a life or mind your own darn business or something, geez!

Meow Mix, great post, and I love you gal and wish you and your gf all the best! Stay safe and keep posting!
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
My problem with the whole, "Don't take ALL of the Bible literally, cherry pick instead" line of reasoning is the thought of, "Why would God make such a confusing book?"
It is only confusing when one does not have the proper background in it. We are looking at a book thousands of years old. This book contains a variety of books, with a variety of genres, that were written by many different authors, over a long time period. In addition, along with this written record, there was also an oral record that went along with it.

The problem is when someone looks at the Bible as only one book, and do not differentiate between the various books in the Bible. It is an over simplified look at the Bible that causes problems.

It takes a considerable amount of effort to fully understand the Bible. Not because it is confusing, but because it is a very large amount of information that has to be processed.
If we can agree that this is a manmade book with no holy guidance from a perfect God then sure the book should be confusing considering how many different people wrote it. However, if I am too expect that this book was in any way divine, then even IF the texts aren't to be taken literal then surely God would've known that writing literal lines about DEATH and then leaving it up to "fallible humans" to "interpret" it as non literal was an idiot move at best.
That is a problem. Thinking that the Bible is divine. However, believing that it is inspired is a different matter. Being inspired does not mean it is 100% what God would have written. It doesn't mean it is divine at all. It just means there was inspiration behind it. Now, I don't accept the idea that it was inspired; however, the is one of the main positions (probably the most prevalent) among Christians.

Also, it has to be realized that the Bible is not just one Book. The Bible is a collection of Books, and must be seen as such. The books were not intended to be included in the Bible, but they were seen to be important, so they were later put into a collection. That is something that needs to be realized in order to look at the Bible correctly. To just lump it all together in one book simply is incorrect.

Once it is realized that the Bible is a collection of many books, then many problems are shed. Different authors experienced what they called God in different ways. Different authors had different purposes of writing their own books. Once this is realized, it really isn't that confusing.

Another thing that would make the Bible less confusing is if it was read in context. Taking one verse and pretending it means anything usually doesn't work. When reading the Law, as with any book on guidelines or law, one must take the entire thing in context. Taking one portion, one sentence, out of context, usually will give a false result.

Laws are amended, edited, etc. That has to be realized. Those amendments etc must also be considered when looking at the actual law.
If I wrote a letter to my brother saying, "Kill the neighbors because they are witches! If you disobey me ill murder you" Then my brother gets the letter and, because he loves me and fears me, kills the people next door. I would be in some serious crap if this were a court of law and so would my brother. I could argue for centuries about how this was supposed to mean "cleanse" the witches or whatever you think it actually means, but the fact is I had to of known in some way that my brother would of taken those words literally and I would have to be a complete moron to ever write him a letter that contained very, very delicate information in a form that was non literal and would thus have to be "interpreted."
That really isn't a fair comparison. Yes, if the Bible simply stated, kill homosexuals, then there would be a problem. The Bible doesn't state that. It also doesn't state that just anyone should enact the death penalty. Just because I read the Bible, that doesn't give me the authority to kill someone because I believe they broke a law that required the death penalty.

There were people who oversaw the Law. It isn't like anyone could just read a passage of the Law, and then kill someone because they broke that law. It was more complicated than that.

In addition, the Law itself did not tolerate murder anyway. That is why it must be read in context. Taking one verse and assuming it stands alone simply fails.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I've been drinking since 6 pm, and I'm just going to say something and hopefully I don't get in trouble for it, but I apologize in advance if I do.
*I just cut down your post for ease*

Basically, I just want to say that I think you made a wonderful post.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
My problem with the whole, "Don't take ALL of the Bible literally, cherry pick instead" line of reasoning is the thought of, "Why would God make such a confusing book?"

its not a 'book'

its a collection of 40 different writings.
 
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