Honest Discussion By A Pro-Gun Advocate On Firearm Laws

[Nous]

I disagree with your premise and until you provide written documentation that the query by a FFL dealer that is rejected is maintained it will so stand until that time.

What do you think this means: "The primary purpose of an NTN or STN is to provide a means of associating inquiries to the NICS with the responses provided by the NICS Federal Firearms Licensees (FFL)"? How does one associate inquiries to the NICS with responses provided by a FFL, if there is no record of identifying the FFL?

And again, I ask: How can it possibly make sense for the FBI to destroy information by which to determine whether an FFL is routinely selling guns to people who are prohibited to buy guns?

 

[esmith]

No. I did not elimnate background checks. I granted an exemption for 1 year continuous holding of job for those who are professionals in hunting or security. Crime and psychiatric tests remain.

Every citizen who could qualify as to be part of a well regulated militia can own a gun. Psychiatric test, crime checks, job holding, refresher training every two years are reasonable qualification criteria. I believe that if a law of that form is brought in by the states, it would pass through the Supreme Court.

Your entitled to your opinion. However, what you propose will not pass the smell test at the majority of courts in the US let alone the SCOTUS

 

[esmith]

What do you think this means: "The primary purpose of an NTN or STN is to provide a means of associating inquiries to the NICS with the responses provided by the NICS Federal Firearms Licensees (FFL)"? How does one associate inquiries to the NICS with responses provided by a FFL, if there is no record of identifying the FFL?

And again, I ask: How can it possibly make sense for the FBI to destroy information by which to determine whether an FFL is routinely selling guns to people who are prohibited to buy guns?

When you obtain a FFL you are given a security type code that the NICS system recognizes and allows access to the data base.
It is the job of the ATF not the FBI to monitor FFL dealers. You do realize that don't you????? The NICS is nothing more than a data base that maintains a records of criminal activities.....National Instant Criminal Background Check System = NICS.

Suggest you do research before you initiate a discussion.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/n...-licensees-newsletter-september-1999/download

 

[Nous]

When you obtain a FFL you are given a security type code that the NICS system recognizes and allows access to the data base.

It seems you have well established my claim (#66) that "If an FFL does a check, and the response is "No, he's a felon," then the FFL sells the gun to the man anyway (notice I specified an illegal sale by an individual), there is definitely a record of which FFL made that illegal sale."

It is the job of the ATF not the FBI to monitor FFL dealers.

Yes, I should have said ATF rather than FBI. ATF is, of course, an agency within the DOJ.

 

[Wirey]

As most of you know I am what some here on Religious Forums consider a right wing gun-nut (your term not mine). So I have some serious questions and my own response to them that I would be open to a discussion about. I just watched a talking head, Chuck Todd, on NBC. A few points were brought forward by his guest and he, Todd, did some song and dance around a couple of points. Let's look at a couple of issues.

1. It seems that there are those that think you have to be over the age of 18 or over to have in their possession a handgun or to purchase one. This is False and True.
Federal Law: You must be 21 years of age to purchase a handgun from a Federal Firearms Licensed dealer. However, as a private citizen I can sell a handgun to anyone 18 and over in Idaho. In addition, a person 18 and over may carry a concealed weapon in Idaho outside the border limits of cities and/or towns . Therefore, the 18 year restriction is a State by State issue. All media networks cable and over-the-air have promulgated false information.

2. Raise the minimum age to 21 to purchase a AR-15 style weapon.
My contention is that this is a knee jerk reaction.
What mental attributes does a 21 year old person have over a 18 year old person?
Do they not realize that a person 17 years of age can join the US military and be issued a automatic weapon. What do they want to do, pass a law that you must be 21 years old to join the military?
Again this is a knee jerk reaction by those that have not set down a looked at the issue.

3. Mr Todd kept bringing up the subject of "expanded background checks". However not once did he say what a "expanded background" check would consist of. Of course he mentioned internet sales, but does he not realize that to purchase a firearm over the internet that the transaction must go through a FFL dealer on both ends of the sale. That is unless the sale is by a private party to a resident of the same state. If a private party sells a firearm to a person from another state they have violated Federal law without going through a person with a FFL at both ends of the transaction.
Note: I would like to see "gun show" sales go through a FFL dealer. But I do not want to require this of sales between private parties. See ZIdaho.com for an example of sales between private parties that I do not think should be required to go through a FFL dealer.
Also what do they mean by "expanded background" checks? Mr Todd kept mentioning adding something (he never specified what he meant) to the background checks. Well he did say if a person is expelled from school it should go on his record. So you can get expelled from school for many "minor" incidents. Say like causing a traffic jam in the school hallways for one.

Now those are only three items. If you are willing to have a intelligent conversation on what additional firearm laws you would like to see enacted I and others would probably be willing to do so. The key word is "Intelligent". Of course I can't stop person from posting, but I will only answer to "Intelligent" statements or ideas. (My post, my definition of intelligent)

While I appreciate the attempt, there's a basic problem with the premise. People who favour gun control laws see guns as a problem, and those who oppose them see guns as a solution. There is no way to talk across that gap. You'd have better luck getting a Red Sox fan to say ARod was the greatest ever. As long as you believe a gun protects you, you'll never understand someone who believes it harms you, and vice-versa.

That said, you guys need to come up with something so you can stop piling up dead children like cord wood.

 

[esmith]

It seems you have well established my claim (#66) that "If an FFL does a check, and the response is "No, he's a felon," then the FFL sells the gun to the man anyway (notice I specified an illegal sale by an individual), there is definitely a record of which FFL made that illegal sale."

Yes, I should have said ATF rather than FBI. ATF is, of course, an agency within the DOJ.

Only if the serial number of the firearm can be traced back to the dealer and can be shown that the dealer sold the firearm to said person. There is no record in the NICS data base or anywhere within the ATF or FBI of serial numbers of firearms unless the firearm has been used in a crime. Therefore, there is absolutely no reason for any law enforcement agency to go looking in the NICS data base to charge a dealer for illegally selling a firearm. Do you not see the flaw in your reasoning?

 

[sayak83]

No. I did not elimnate background checks. I granted an exemption for 1 year continuous holding of job for those who are professionals in hunting or security. Crime and psychiatric tests remain.

Every citizen who could qualify as to be part of a well regulated militia can own a gun. Psychiatric test, crime checks, job holding, refresher training every two years are reasonable qualification criteria. I believe that if a law of that form is brought in by the states, it would pass through the Supreme Court.

Hi @Nous , will these above regulations, if proposed, pass in SCOTUS under favorable conditions (say judge bench is majority liberal)?

 

[Revoltingest]

While I appreciate the attempt, there's a basic problem with the premise. People who favour gun control laws see guns as a problem, and those who oppose them see guns as a solution. There is no way to talk across that gap.

Sure there is. It just requires suspending hostilities, finding common ground, &
exploring outside the box solutions. But most important is civility, ya ****ing,
***** sucking, poodle fondling, hamster fluffing, **** pumping, sardine molester!

 

[esmith]

While I appreciate the attempt, there's a basic problem with the premise. People who favour gun control laws see guns as a problem, and those who oppose them see guns as a solution. There is no way to talk across that gap. You'd have better luck getting a Red Sox fan to say ARod was the greatest ever. As long as you believe a gun protects you, you'll never understand someone who believes it harms you, and vice-versa.

That said, you guys need to come up with something so you can stop piling up dead children like cord wood.

When 9-11 occurred the Nation came together and created the TSA, then they started making you remove your shoes, then the size of bottles in your carry-on; more and more checks were put in place as the terrorist devised more ways to cause a catastrophic event. We thought out what is the best way to approach this problem not what is the best way to score political points.
The same thing has to happen at our schools, we have to make it harder for someone bent on attacking the school. This idea that removing X firearm from civilian hands does not solve the problem.
So, let's start out by "hardening" our schools. If school districts or even State wide want to allow staff to be armed and insures that proper and continued training takes place let them do so. I say have an open discussion in each school district whether they want to participate or not if the State says they may do so.
After schools have been "hardened" we can start discussing means of keeping firearms out of the hands of those that should not have them; but only after we have fixed the major problem....Schools are easy targets for the I-wanna-be's.

 

[Nous]

Hi @Nous , will these above regulations, if proposed, pass in SCOTUS under favorable conditions (say judge bench is majority liberal)?

By "psychiatric test" and "job holding," do you mean that a person cannot pass a background check and thereby purchase and/or possess a firearm unless s/he "passes" a particular psychiatric test and has a job (or holds a particular job in "hunting or security")? If that's what you mean, I am certain that no court will find those provisions to be a permissible burden on the right as the Second Amendment is currently interpreted.

 

[Nous]

Only if the serial number of the firearm can be traced back to the dealer and can be shown that the dealer sold the firearm to said person.

Show us that no records are kept identifying the FFL for persons who are denied.

 

[sayak83]

By "psychiatric test" and "job holding," do you mean that a person cannot pass a background check and thereby purchase and/or possess a firearm unless s/he "passes" a particular psychiatric test and has a job (or holds a particular job in "hunting or security")? If that's what you mean, I am certain that no court will find those provisions to be a permissible burden on the right as the Second Amendment is currently interpreted.

Cool. Then there is no hope for the US.

 

[esmith]

Show us that no records are kept identifying the FFL for persons who are denied.

show me that they are...two can play at this game.
Then tell me what reason would law enforcement have looking in the NICS.

 

[sun rise]

sunrise123 said: ↑
Maturity specifically the brain is more mature at 21 although 25 is the typical final brain maturity age.

Do you have data on this or is this an opinion?

The prefrontal cortex is one of the last regions of the brain to reach maturation, which explains why some adolescents exhibit behavioral immaturity. There are several executive functions of the human prefrontal cortex that remain under construction during adolescence, as illustrated in Figures 3 and and4.4. The fact that brain development is not complete until near the age of 25 years refers specifically to the development of the prefrontal cortex.19

Maturation of the adolescent brain

 

[oldbadger]

Second, there are many shooting competitions that uses AR-15 style weapons.

Tell us more?

 

[Revoltingest]

School mass shooting data in the news....
http://news.northeastern.edu/2018/0...e-safest-places-for-children-researcher-says/

 

[Nous]

Cool. Then there is no hope for the US.

As things stand now, there is little justification for having hope. I maintain hope mostly just to be contrary.

 

[esmith]

Tell us more?

NRA Explore | America's Rifle Challenge
Match versus Service Rifle—Which is Best For You?
The Exciting Sport of 3-Gun Shooting • NSSF

 

[Nous]

show me that they are.

You already linked to the webpage that explains not only that but why such records are kept. You haven't responded to my questions in #81:

What do you think this means: "The primary purpose of an NTN or STN is to provide a means of associating inquiries to the NICS with the responses provided by the NICS Federal Firearms Licensees (FFL)"? How does one associate inquiries to the NICS with responses provided by a FFL, if there is no record of identifying the FFL?

And again, I ask: How can it possibly make sense for the FBI to destroy information by which to determine whether an FFL is routinely selling guns to people who are prohibited to buy guns?​

Why don't you try answering those questions?

 

[esmith]

You already linked to the webpage that explains not only that but why such records are kept. You haven't responded to my questions in #81:

What do you think this means: "The primary purpose of an NTN or STN is to provide a means of associating inquiries to the NICS with the responses provided by the NICS Federal Firearms Licensees (FFL)"? How does one associate inquiries to the NICS with responses provided by a FFL, if there is no record of identifying the FFL?

And again, I ask: How can it possibly make sense for the FBI to destroy information by which to determine whether an FFL is routinely selling guns to people who are prohibited to buy guns?​

Why don't you try answering those questions?

The FBI does not investigate dealers...you have already admitted you made a mistake once, why try again.
NICS Process for FFLs

Now would you please explain to me what reason you see for any law enforcement officer to refer to the NICS data base when investigating a crime. If you will not do that there is no reason to continue.